ImpDev Meetups/2009-08-25

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ImpDev Meetup for August 25, 2009.

  • Imprudence development has been slow for the past several months, but will be gearing up again now.
  • Keep active, and post frequent, small updates on the blog to keep people interested. Try to attract more developers/contributors and get them involved.
  • First priority is to "catch up" with other viewers, borrowing desirable features. May update to 1.23 base.
  • We'd like to borrow Snowglobe's HTTP textures, but it must be done in a way that doesn't break compatibility with OpenSim.
  • Next week is Imprudence's first birthday! It's hard to believe it has been so long.
  • A new skin would be nice, to make Imprudence look different from the regular viewer. Old skins would be kept, just not default.
  • Regarding object import/export: "User is object's creator" is not a good permissions check. It makes the tool useless for backing up collaborative builds. Instead, the test will be full perms (including effective full perms via Share with Group). There will also be a warning advising the user that copying may be illegal if they don't have legal rights to copy it, even if it's full perm.
  • McCabe wants to make Windlight settings (sky and water) quicker to access. Good idea, but there's some disagreement about how to do it.
    • McCabe suggested a new top menu which can be shown or hidden as the user prefers, because it would be easy to code.
    • Jacek is concerned about "menu bloat" on the top bar, and suggested adding menu items for Sky Settings and Water Settings in World > Environment Settings.
    • A toolbar tab (like the media tab) devoted to Windlight settings would be really cool, but more work.
    • To keep the meetup from dragging on too long, we decided to continue the discussion later or on the wiki, mailing list, or whatever.



[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe should be here any minute...
[12:03] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: And here he is now!
[12:03] Geneko Nemeth: Oh hey!
[12:04] Armin Weatherwax: hi McCabe
[12:04] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy!
[12:05] Jacek Antonelli: Gonna go grab a drink real quick. Anyone want anything?
[12:05] Armin Weatherwax: yeah, soda ...
[12:05] McCabe Maxsted: mm, water, please
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli hands you a glass of... *bonk* Err, dang, it won't go through my monitor.
[12:08] McCabe Maxsted: boo
[12:08] Armin Weatherwax: hmmmm. gentoo soda :)
[12:08] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:08] Armin Weatherwax: but it detatched my paw
[12:08] Jacek Antonelli: D'oh. You need more attachment points!
[12:08] Geneko Nemeth is still using Woe32...
[12:09] Jacek Antonelli: Like this: hehe
[12:10] Armin Weatherwax: hm. so far any hack for Attachements had significant downsides
[12:11] Jacek Antonelli: Such as?
[12:11] McCabe Maxsted: you've tried it?
[12:11] Armin Weatherwax: atm im wearin the paws at lower arm - so hands are looking through
[12:12] Armin Weatherwax: the multiple attachemnts per point hack shows only up for people who also have it
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed
[12:12] McCabe Maxsted: ahh
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: I'm hoping we can get the major third party viewers to use it, and then use that to pressure LL >:D
[12:13] Armin Weatherwax: so we needed a LL solution
[12:13] Armin Weatherwax: ++
[12:13] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, anyway. I suppose we should get to the topic
[12:14] Armin Weatherwax: aye.
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Imprudence development has been pretty slow for the past many months. A lot of that was because of my own lack of time, with work things coming up and sucking all my energy
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: But as of today, I have resigned from my job, which leaves me with more time to get things moving again!
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: \o/
[12:15] Geneko Nemeth: >_<
[12:16] Jacek Antonelli: The job was really stressful anyway, so no loss there
[12:16] Geneko Nemeth: But... who is going to put bread on the table, then?
[12:17] Armin Weatherwax: hm. i saw some other viewer projects wher people got burned out by RL AND viewer development AND keeping up with LL
[12:18] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[12:19] Armin Weatherwax: think by several project working together a lot of time can be saved
[12:19] Armin Weatherwax: and energy
[12:20] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed, very true
[12:20] Jacek Antonelli: I know you (Armin) have been doing a lot of work even while McCabe and I haven't been doing so much -- thanks for that :) Unfortunately I've been neglecting you, hehe. But I'll be merging your branches in soon :)
[12:21] Armin Weatherwax: hehe, I dont mind... I was doing it anyway, so it was right to push it - I mean what sense would it make to keep it on my harddrive
[12:22] Jacek Antonelli: hehe, true
[12:23] Armin Weatherwax: I'm not the best coder - hobbyist since 1982 or so (12 then) - but always doing a little code here and there
[12:23] Armin Weatherwax: its just fun and relaxation for me
[12:24] Jacek Antonelli: That's good :)
[12:24] McCabe Maxsted nods. I know what you mean
[12:25] Jacek Antonelli: So, in short, we're going to try to "ramp things up". I'm hoping to get more developers involved, and build up a team of contributors, so that it won't slow down just from one or two of us getting busy in RL
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: And get back to doing cool stuff, instead of Gstreamer XD
[12:26] Geneko Nemeth: Aww...
[12:26] McCabe Maxsted: have anyone in mind?
[12:27] McCabe Maxsted: (and yes, Gstreamer, magnum, *bang*)
[12:27] Armin Weatherwax: anyone had a look at the LL plugin branch ?
[12:27] McCabe Maxsted: nope
[12:27] Jacek Antonelli: Not yeah. Aimee has been doing a ton of cool stuff with it, though :o
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli: She recently made a VNC plugin!
[12:28] Armin Weatherwax: cool :D
[12:28] McCabe Maxsted: nice
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli:
[12:29] Jacek Antonelli: Very impressive. I wish we could kidnap Aimee, hehe
[12:29] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[12:29] Armin Weatherwax: hehe /me keeps the lick er link
[12:30] McCabe Maxsted: yeah, but she's happy
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: Yep
[12:30] Armin Weatherwax: yeah, Aimee does great things
[12:31] Jacek Antonelli: Oh, one thing I wanted to start doing, is having more blog posts about what we're working on. They don't have to be anything fancy, just quick ones, almost like Twittering
[12:33] Armin Weatherwax: hm, that was missing the last few months for me - I didn't know if the project was still alive. I think a regular update would be good. Even if it is just "busy having a RL, too"
[12:33] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[12:33] McCabe Maxsted nods
[12:34] Jacek Antonelli: Armin, would you be up for that? I could set up an account on the blog for you
[12:34] Armin Weatherwax: Hope my english isnt too bad :)
[12:35] Jacek Antonelli: Hehe, don't worry about that :) It's fine, and nothing has to be perfect
[12:35] Armin Weatherwax: lol, true
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Hrmm. I think that covers most of what I wanted to talk about today. Just... well, we're trying to get things active again!
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Also -- can you believe that one week from today is the first birthday of Imprudence? :O
[12:36] Armin Weatherwax: 1 year ?
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Yep
[12:36] Armin Weatherwax: \0/
[12:36] McCabe Maxsted: wild
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: Our announcement was on September 1, 2008. It doesn't seem like it was so long ago. Well.... it does, in some ways. But not in other ways. Time is weird, hehe
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway, an anniversary is a good time to turn over a new leaf and start being active again. :)
[12:38] Armin Weatherwax: indeed
[12:38] Armin Weatherwax: what's everybodys favourite Linden branch atm?
[12:39] McCabe Maxsted honestly doesn't know, heh. I haven't checked in ages
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: I have been wanting to steal Snowglobe's HTTP textures. Aside from that, I haven't been following them very much
[12:40] Armin Weatherwax: snowglobe is partially cool. but it braks heavyly compatibility with opensim
[12:40] Armin Weatherwax: break*
[12:40] Geneko Nemeth: Not that heavily... just it won't download any textures.
[12:40] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe says he has noticed a 25% improvement in texture loading speed from using 1.22 (or 1.23?) as a code base for Imprudence. It should be even faster with HTTP textures :) Then maybe people will stop complaining about how slow Imprudence is! Hahaha
[12:40] Armin Weatherwax: and no worldmap
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, compatibility with Opensim will be an issue. Hrm.
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: We'd want to have it use the old code when connecting to servers that don't support the new features
[12:41] McCabe Maxsted: what I'd really like is for us to be on feature parity with the other viewers currently out there
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, definitely. Imprudence has fallen behind, I feel
[12:42] McCabe Maxsted: I hear a lot of "but Imprudence doesn't have this"
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: Although Armin's patches and branches should bring in a lot of features
[12:43] Jacek Antonelli: Emerald and Meerkat have lots of nice things to borrow, and in many cases to also improve upon them.
[12:43] Armin Weatherwax: Hm. what you think about starting a new branch - rebasing to any 1.23-sort of viewer is a pita
[12:44] Geneko Nemeth: Interesting idea!
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: I was thinking of updating the Imprudence codebase to 1.23. But I have heard some vague bad things about 1.23? I don't really know the specifics, just people grumbling about it. Maybe it's not based on any real issues, just people being people
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: Have you guys heard of any serious issues with 1.23? Crashes or features breaking?
[12:45] McCabe Maxsted: I only used an early RC, but it wasn't very stable for me
[12:46] McCabe Maxsted: but you know.... I'd kinda like to avoid a duke nukem forever scenario, is constantly updating the back end without ever releasing anything
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: Well, yes. Updating to 1.23 would only take an afternoon or so, though. And I think it would make it easier to pull in features from the other viewers
[12:47] Armin Weatherwax: honestly i didnt use 1.23 longer than 1/2 hr since it came out. I have a snowglobe with some patches applied, that are also in imp (quickfilter, simplemath, middlemousepaste --- er no thats not in imp)
[12:48] McCabe Maxsted nods
[12:48] McCabe Maxsted: mmk
[12:48] Armin Weatherwax: mmk?
[12:48] McCabe Maxsted: hmm, okay, shorthand
[12:48] Jacek Antonelli: I guess we can try it and see.
[12:49] Armin Weatherwax: how important is opensim? I never saw more than 25 AVs on at the same time at OSGRID
[12:49] Jacek Antonelli: So. 1. Be more active, and show activity on the blog. 2. Catch up with the other viewers. 3. Take over the world.
[12:50] Armin Weatherwax: lol
[12:50] Jacek Antonelli: I feel strongly that we should keep compatibility with OpenSim.
[12:50] McCabe Maxsted: I think it's important for the crowd we want to gather; the people who trust 3rd party viewers are the same people who'll have opensims
[12:51] Armin Weatherwax: take over the world can be done after Morgaine rewrote the whole viewer. think tomorrow that is.
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: Even if we have to have some redundant code, supporting both old protocols and new ones
[12:51] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: lol
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: Morgaine has a lot of ideas. It would be nice if more of them turned into action, though...
[12:52] Armin Weatherwax: sadly atm opensim rules out snowglobe
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, unless we can have it both ways. Detect which features the server supports, and only use HTTP textures if it's supported
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: But, that can come later. First priority is to catch up and get a release out, I think
[12:53] McCabe Maxsted: anyone have any skins they like?
[12:54] McCabe Maxsted: viewer skins I mean
[12:54] Jacek Antonelli: We need a read one so CodeBastard Redgrave will use Imprudence again. XD
[12:54] Jacek Antonelli: *red one
[12:54] McCabe Maxsted: haha
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted: yeah, that's one thing where I think a lot of people will notice differences in quality
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted: "it must be better, it looks different and is shinier!"
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, good point. It also reduces the expectation that the UI will be exactly the same.
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Right now, Imprudence looks just like the regular viewer, but has subtle differences in the UI, so people get confused, I think
[12:56] McCabe Maxsted: yup
[12:56] Armin Weatherwax: hehe, i prefer still the classic skin, because it fits so good to kde 3.5
[12:57] Jacek Antonelli: Not to worry, we'll keep it. We'll even keep Dazzle, haha
[12:57] Armin Weatherwax: lol
[12:57] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[12:59] Armin Weatherwax: emerald has a lot of skins to choose - but i think its not the reason why a lot of friends are using emerald now
[12:59] Jacek Antonelli: True
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, we should make a list of features from Emerald and Meerkat that are most important to have
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Perhaps make tickets on Lighthouse
[13:00] McCabe Maxsted: recently released a version
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: Nice
[13:02] Armin Weatherwax: ah, btw. LL recommends to only make creator exportable - whats everybodys opinion on that ?
[13:03] Geneko Nemeth: ?
[13:03] Armin Weatherwax: Meerkat can export objects
[13:03] McCabe Maxsted: I think that's a good idea
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: first only it was possible to export objects you are the creator of
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: then it was changed to full perm objects
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: dunno the stand of today
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: I think "creator only" is not a good test of whether you should be able to export
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: It makes the tool useless for collaborative builds, where you have full permission to the objects but are not the creator
[13:05] Armin Weatherwax: best would be to have an additional perm, of course : allowto export
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: ahh, didnt' thinka bout that
[13:06] Jacek Antonelli: So, my test would be full perm -- that you have the ability to modify, copy, and transfer the object. Which would include things which are shared to group with full perms
[13:07] Jacek Antonelli: But, I think we should also include a warning, advising the user that even if it is full perm, it still may be illegal to copy if you don't have legal rights to do so
[13:08] Armin Weatherwax: yeah, sounds reasonable
[13:10] Armin Weatherwax: in the end it's only the user who decides what's ok and what's not.
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted: this is random, but is everyone okay with me moving the environment editor stuff into its own toggleable menu?
[13:11] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, how do you mean?
[13:12] McCabe Maxsted: instead of the environment flyout, it toggles a menu like advanced, where you can access stuff without so many clicks; kinda like emerald does
[13:12] Jacek Antonelli: Hrmmmmm. Not sure how I feel about that.
[13:13] Armin Weatherwax: hm. mockup ?
[13:13] McCabe Maxsted: well, it's 4-5 clicks to change anything in the environment substantially
[13:13] McCabe Maxsted: A LOOOOOOT of people have complained about it
[13:13] McCabe Maxsted: (at least that I know)
[13:14] McCabe Maxsted: it's basically an Advanced featureset most people prolly won't touch, but it needs easier access. So I was thinking its own menu for now
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: Change which sort of things? Like water and sky settings?
[13:14] McCabe Maxsted: yup
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: I'm in favor of making it quicker to access, but I feel like a new menu would not be the best way to do that
[13:15] Armin Weatherwax: like the emerald menu ... or the meerkat menu ... between help and adwanced ... ah ... ok ... + from my side
[13:15] McCabe Maxsted: yup
[13:16] Geneko Nemeth: Gadgets!
[13:16] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[13:16] Armin Weatherwax: ++
[13:16] McCabe Maxsted: how would you do it then?
[13:17] McCabe Maxsted: (and I'm fine with not doing it the best way if the best way would take too much work)
[13:17] Armin Weatherwax: the emerald prefs tab with additional horizontal tabs looks quite ok
[13:17] Geneko Nemeth: Okay, I have this crazy idea. What if right-clicking the sky pops up a menu of presets?
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: Perhaps add a shortcut for the environment editor. Or add "Water Settings" and "Sky Settings" to the World > Environment menu
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: To open straight to those tabs in the environment editor
[13:18] Armin Weatherwax: Jaceks idea of lille gears is - btw - still pretty cool
[13:18] Armin Weatherwax: little*
[13:19] McCabe Maxsted: it's a place where you don't just set it and forget it, though
[13:19] McCabe Maxsted: I don't think it should be buried
[13:19] Jacek Antonelli: There was also that idea a while back of adding a new tab on the bottom, next to the media tab, with quick access to the environment settings
[13:19] Jacek Antonelli: Heck, there were some ideas on the forums too
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: yeah... that was my other one, heh
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: this'd be easier, hehe
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm.
[13:22] Jacek Antonelli: I think add menu items for the Sky and Water editors, maybe a shortcut, and see if that helps enough to tide people over until a tab or gadget or whatever is added
[13:22] Jacek Antonelli doesn't like menu bloat. Even optional ones. >_>
[13:22] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[13:22] McCabe Maxsted: :P
[13:22] McCabe Maxsted: I disagree, but fair enough
[13:23] Armin Weatherwax: what about having brainstorming at wiki pages ... lol ...
[13:23] Jacek Antonelli: hehe, yes
[13:23] Jacek Antonelli: Or the forums
[13:24] Armin Weatherwax: yeah ...
[13:24] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway, this meetup has run much longer than I thought it would! We should go have lunch or dinner or whatever
[13:24] McCabe Maxsted: would need to set it up in a very specific manner.... people get batshit crazy about feature suggestions, then all rally around the really difficult/crazy ones
[13:24] Geneko Nemeth was mostly away anyways and was also mostly only listening.
[13:24] McCabe Maxsted: unless we move to JIRA or something where people can create issues easily
[13:25] Jacek Antonelli: Perhaps we can continue the discussion on the ImpDev list
[13:25] Armin Weatherwax: hehe.... I was so long off in SL ... I have to have see a lot of friends after that meeting :)
[13:26] Jacek Antonelli: Well, let's adjourn for this week, I think. We can discuss more things next week, or on the wiki / forums / list / IRC / whatever
[13:26] Armin Weatherwax: yepp, lets use the mailing list.
[13:26] McCabe Maxsted: okay
[13:27] Jacek Antonelli: Alright, thanks for coming by, everyone! See you next week!