ImpDev Meetups/2009-09-08

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ImpDev Meetup for September 08, 2009.

  • Attendees: Armin, Geneko, Jacek, Kitty Barnett, Mm Alder. McCabe slept in too late and missed it, so we're going to paddle him next week.
  • Jacek has imported RLVa and Meerkat's object backup feature. Still some polishing left to do. Login manager is next on the list after that.
    • Object import needs some checks for permission to build here, and for texture permissions, among other things. (Also an option to import at the original location, instead of near the avatar.)
    • RLVa Windlight param commands didn't work for Jacek, but Kitty says they should be working. Jacek will investigate that.
  • McCabe has imported several Emerald features: Double click inworld to TP; Asset (texture) browser; Animation list; Fetch inventory at startup; Phantom avatar; and Sit anywhere.
    • Geneko was concerned about users accidently triggering the double click TP feature.
  • McCabe wanted feedback about other Emerald features he's considering importing: Show object's previous owner; New prim presets in the create tab; Set chat channel; Draw distance slider; Temporary image uploads.
    • There were concerns that temp image uploads are a bit of a hack, and may stop working or be blocked by LL some day.
      • Jacek suggested a partial replacement, allowing users to use images as textures locally without uploading them, for example applying them to prims or clothing to test them out. Other users wouldn't be able to see them, though.
  • Imprudence 1.2 is on schedule to be released before the end of September.
  • Possible future enhancement for RLVa integration. Start location at login screen is ignored if the account you're logging in to had a restriction set on that. It would be good to have a small pop-up notice after you login, to let the user know why the start location was ignored.
  • Geneko has some patches for improving Look At Last Chatter, not splitting name tags with a newline when there's no group title, allowing "(Away)", "(Busy)", etc. in nametags to be localized, and allowing libndof to support devices with more than 6 axes.
  • Jacek should make an Imprudence bear (like a Linden bear) with a little Imprudence T-shirt. Kawaiiiiiiiiii!


  • VWR-5063 - Cannot attach multiple objects via wear


[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: Ahoy Gen
[12:00] Kitty Barnett waves... hey-ies :)
[12:00] Geneko Nemeth: Hey hey!
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Kitty! :)
[12:00] Geneko Nemeth: I've got something on Viewer 2009.
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: Oh?
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Armin :)
[12:00] Armin Weatherwax: hey :)
[12:01] Geneko Nemeth: Well, it's nothing actually, but LL says they will have new strings to translate for Viewer 2009 since September.
[12:01] Geneko Nemeth: One of the first is
[12:01] Geneko Nemeth:
[12:01] Geneko Nemeth: (Note that I'm retired from translating stuff...)
[12:01] Geneko Nemeth: So yeah, it's not much, but better than nothing...
[12:01] Jacek Antonelli: Dang, they're stealing our black bezel idea. That we stole from Apple. But still! *shakes her tiny fist at LL*
[12:02] Kitty Barnett: I think they jumped from "Viewer '09' to "SL 2.0" because it's probably not going to make it in 2009 :o
[12:02] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:02] Geneko Nemeth: Sigh, if this is the Metaverse in Snow Crash I could have you paid me 100 Kongbucks for this.
[12:02] Kitty Barnett: even if they release it today as an RC.. there's not enough 2009 left
[12:02] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Mm
[12:02] Geneko Nemeth: It's time they bumped the major version anyway.
[12:03] Mm Alder: Hello
[12:03] Armin Weatherwax: hi :)
[12:03] Kitty Barnett just wants to see code already.... it'll be bad enough rewriting stuff as it is :o
[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: Good turnout today. Now let's see if McCabe remembers to wake up for this
[12:03] Kitty Barnett giggle
[12:03] Kitty Barnett closes her eyes... concentrates really really and mentally shouts "wake up!"
[12:04] Armin Weatherwax: maybe chanting helps
[12:04] Jacek Antonelli: I'm doubtful that he will, since he's not even logged on to Gtalk. Boo.
[12:05] Jacek Antonelli: Oh well, we can flog him next week
[12:06] Geneko Nemeth: So, got anything on the agenda?
[12:06] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty and Mm, did you have anything special you came by for, or just dropping in? :) If you've got something, I'll be sure to save some time
[12:06] Geneko Nemeth: ... so as to speak...
[12:07] Kitty Barnett: just peeked at the blog last week since hadn't heard from you for a while and RLVa was still mentioned so thought I'd peek in :)
[12:07] Mm Alder: Nothing special. Just wanted to listen in.
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: Okay :)
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: Well, a quick status update from me, then -- I applied the latest RLVa and Meerkat's object backup feature last week
[12:08] Jacek Antonelli: There's still some tweaking to do, but they seem to work
[12:08] Mm Alder: RLVa is what?
[12:08] Armin Weatherwax: \0/
[12:08] Kitty Barnett: you got the one from the blog?
[12:08] Jacek Antonelli: RLVa = Restrained Life Viewer alternative, Kitty's reimplementation of the RestrainedLife API
[12:09] Mm Alder: Ah, didn't know the acronym. :-)
[12:09] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Yes, downloaded from the blog. Let's see... 1.0.1h
[12:09] Kitty Barnett: ah okies... just wanted to make sure you stumbled onto that too hehe :)
[12:09] Geneko Nemeth: I used the Meerkat's backup once and it feels kinda unpolished.
[12:10] Geneko Nemeth: When restoring it once rezzed into a no-build area and...
[12:10] Kitty Barnett: it's been in Emerald for a while now so it should be good... that or I scared people into not wanting to IM me with bugs :p
[12:10] Geneko Nemeth: Well... the pogress dialog seems to be suspicible to some attacks.
[12:11] Armin Weatherwax: CV has a polished Meerkat backup ... but I didn't see that much difference
[12:11] Jacek Antonelli: Geneko: Hrm, okay. I agree it could use some more polish and cleanup.
[12:11] Jacek Antonelli: I'll take a look at CV and see what the difference is, and if there's anything worth borrowing
[12:12] Armin Weatherwax: if i remember right it does not polish to check for the perms of the textures
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: D'oh
[12:13] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Since you're here... I was wondering if there were any plans for implementing setenv_* params soon? ^_^
[12:13] Kitty Barnett: they've been in there since 0.2.something :o
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Oh, they have? Hrm, I'll have to look again
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, thanks :D
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: Let's see. There was an email from McCabe last night. He has some features borrowed from Emerald: - Double click tp in world - Asset browser - Animation list - Fetch inventory at startup - Phantom avatar - Sit anywhere
[12:15] Geneko Nemeth: Double click TP? I think that's a bad idea...
[12:16] Jacek Antonelli: And he wanted thoughts on whether we should borrow some other features: - Show last owner before you in the general tab - New prim types (we should come up with a better name for 'em. I was thinking "Twist" maybe for the twisty ones, dunno about the others). - Set chat channel from the chat bar (I have a better idea for this than the one they used). - Add draw distance slider to the main UI somewhere (they put it in the toolbar). - Upload local images.
[12:16] Kitty Barnett: I have a patch to fix the auto-pilot behaviour tucked away somewhere if you want it :o solves the issue with double clicking on a HUD and walking... (affects double-click tp since it uses the same thing)
[12:16] Jacek Antonelli: Geneko: What are your concerns with double-click TP?
[12:17] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm... first Lindens already have double-click autopilot. Second, it's prone to misfires.
[12:17] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. We'll be replacing double-click autopilot, I think. Misfires is a good point, though.
[12:17] Kitty Barnett: hehe *points up*... patch should fix those really... also did some stuff on not tp'ing when there's a telehub or a forced landing point etc
[12:17] Geneko Nemeth wants single-click autopilot...
[12:18] Armin Weatherwax: lol
[12:18] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Neat :D Can I get those patches somewhere?
[12:19] Kitty Barnett: errr... if I extract them from my general "I'm bored and will do something" branch lol
[12:19] Geneko Nemeth: Hahaha, so I'm not the only one with an arrangement like this...
[12:19] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:19] Kitty Barnett: the telehub stuff is kind of quirky though, since I'm not entirely sure about all of the exceptions
[12:19] Armin Weatherwax: sounds like my guinea-git branch :)
[12:20] Jacek Antonelli: Hehe, okay.
[12:20] Kitty Barnett: making patches just usually takes more time than writing the thing in the first place :(
[12:20] Kitty Barnett: so I tend to skip over it :p
[12:21] Jacek Antonelli: Aw, yeah. Is your repository available somewhere? I'd be happy to try and extract them myself
[12:21] Kitty Barnett: Emerald also picks up the "multiple Wear" patch I did (that one is on JIRA) and it seems to work fine
[12:21] Kitty Barnett: fixes the issue where if you selected 2 attachments and pick "Wear", only one attaches and the others fail
[12:21] Jacek Antonelli: Oh, that's a good one :) We will definitely have to use that
[12:22] Geneko Nemeth: Whoohoo!
[12:22] Kitty Barnett: I'll find the JIRA :o
[12:22] Jacek Antonelli: Thank you! :)
[12:22] Geneko Nemeth might want to do something to attachments too.
[12:22] Kitty Barnett:
[12:23] Kitty Barnett: it's trivial really, but the Library portion of it makes it seems complicated :(
[12:23] Jacek Antonelli: Hm, how about these other Emerald features that McCabe was mentioning? Show last owner of the object, new prim types ( :O ?!?!?!), set chat channel, draw distance slider, and temp image uploads?
[12:24] Armin Weatherwax: draw distance slider is pretty useful
[12:24] Kitty Barnett: temp image uploads kind of seems to border a little bit of abusing one feature for something else IMO :o
[12:24] Jacek Antonelli: Good to have? Ideas for improvements? Concerns?
[12:24] Armin Weatherwax: temp img - is that still working ?
[12:25] Jacek Antonelli: Not sure if it's still working, but I expect it could go away some day, so I'm hesitant to add that
[12:25] Geneko Nemeth: New prim types... you mean new "create object" palette items?
[12:25] Jacek Antonelli: Has anyone used that in Emerald? Does it let other people see the textures?
[12:25] Kitty Barnett: you can see them, but once the sim restarts they're gone though
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: Geneko: I guess so? All McCabe wrote was "new prim types"
[12:26] Kitty Barnett: or they won't show on other sims obviously since they're a local "asset"
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: I haven't actually used Emerald, myself
[12:26] Armin Weatherwax: i tried on my opensim - withe a sculpt .... its still there
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Okay, good to know
[12:26] Geneko Nemeth: I've got this feeling that somebody is going to write a script that uploads the image whenever the sim restats...
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[12:26] Geneko Nemeth: Armin: Cache cleared?
[12:27] Armin Weatherwax: of the viewer: yes - opensim - dunno
[12:27] Armin Weatherwax: (in fact it shows up on imp, emerald, meerkat, snowglobe
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli: I was thinking that we could have a purely local feature that allows you to try out images before uploading. It wouldn't be a full replacement for temp image uploads, but it would be useful for builders, clothing makers, etc.
[12:29] Armin Weatherwax: and it saves asset space for LL - i mean in the long run 1 time used textures are more expensive than L$10
[12:29] Kitty Barnett: the garbage collector will pick those up sooner or later though
[12:29] Jacek Antonelli: Good point
[12:30] Armin Weatherwax hopes the garbage collector does
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. I'm not sure how zealous their garbage collector is. It would be worrying if they deleted items that were being referred to by UUID in a script, but not in anyone's inventory... but, that's getting off topic.
[12:31] Kitty Barnett: it takes care of that :) as long as it's a full UUID string, it counts as a reference
[12:32] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway, Imp 1.2 is coming along well! RLVa, object backup, and several Emerald features already imported. McCabe will be doing some more Emerald features, I'll be polishing object backup, and importing + revamping Meerkat's login manager
[12:33] Jacek Antonelli: Having it ready by the end of September shouldn't be any difficulty, I think
[12:33] Armin Weatherwax: ah. btw emerald, i found the particle chat again. its a few lines in llvoavatar
[12:33] Jacek Antonelli: Okay
[12:33] Kitty Barnett: do you have a provisional download somewhere already, Jacek? mostly would just like to glance over whether any Imprudence-specific features don't need a special RLVa adjustment to prevent a "loophole"?
[12:34] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Source is available on Github. I'll be trying to look for loopholes and other features that the RLVa settings should affect, don't worry :)
[12:35] Kitty Barnett: hehe didn't mean to doubt you :) was just offering to save some time :)
[12:35] Jacek Antonelli: Okay :)
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: One thing that came up on Plurk was the login location feature. Someone was noting that it can be annoying to have that disappear just because you want to use certain RLV features. I think it still shows in Imprudence now (I noticed there were some compile-time flags for controlling that), but it's something for us to consider
[12:37] Kitty Barnett: actually, that doesn't happen with RLVa :o you always get the Start Location unless you happened to be restricted with something that would disallow its use at the last log-off
[12:37] Geneko Nemeth notices Jacek made such a long chat it was cut off in the chat bubble.
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: Aha
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, that is good to know, Kitty!
[12:38] Jacek Antonelli: \o/
[12:38] Kitty Barnett: one of the goals was to significantly the "annoyance" for vanilla (for lack of a better word) use
[12:38] Geneko Nemeth: Start Location restriction is tied to avatar, right?
[12:38] Kitty Barnett: (reduce)
[12:38] Geneko Nemeth: If my mistress (no, I don't have one) locked me to login at Dynamism I could still log into OSGrid as Kakurady Drakenar, right?
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Gen: Right. And I think that's the tricky bit... if you're not logged in yet, it's hard to tell if you're the avatar that the restriction should be applied to
[12:39] Kitty Barnett: well, it actually still shows it.... but it ignores it when it notices that the avie that's logging on isn't supposed to change it
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Ah, great!
[12:39] Geneko Nemeth: But the viewer has to put their name before logging in...
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: You've thought of everything :D
[12:39] Kitty Barnett: it's a "per user" debug setting and those aren't loaded until login :(
[12:40] Geneko Nemeth: I don't think ignoring is a good idea, instead disable it and show a "why I can't change this".
[12:40] Geneko Nemeth: Aww! Darn.
[12:40] Kitty Barnett: people who use RLV would know why they can't change their login location though
[12:40] Geneko Nemeth: So it's not possible without large parts of refactoring.
[12:40] Kitty Barnett: or why it ignores it anyway
[12:41] Geneko Nemeth haven't looked at much code actually
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: I think ignoring it at login if you're restricted is the best solution.
[12:41] Kitty Barnett: and it seemed the benefit of giving it back to people who can use outweighed the slight disconnect of having the field visible when it will end up being ignored (minority case)
[12:41] Geneko Nemeth: That's not the best user experience. Sure you could show that "your desired location is not avaliable because your mistress locked you here" afterlogin...
[12:41] Kitty Barnett giggles
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: Gen: Right. Was about to say that, hehe
[12:42] Kitty Barnett: true :) but then there's the hassle of getting that translated into every viewer language
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: "Naughty slave, trying to escape from your mistress. She has been IMed and you'll be whipped later."
[12:42] Kitty Barnett: lol
[12:42] Geneko Nemeth: Hahaha.
[12:42] Geneko Nemeth: Nice one, Jacek! I'll personally see that translated into Chinese (which nobody will see).
[12:43] Jacek Antonelli: hahaha
[12:43] Armin Weatherwax: hehe - is there already grid-to grid forced tp ?
[12:43] Kitty Barnett: probably wouldn't work across grid I'd guess :o
[12:43] Jacek Antonelli: Armin: That would be tricky, but I imagine there will be some day :D
[12:43] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[12:43] Kitty Barnett: it uses the same code as tp'ing from the map so it works from there, then it would work too
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: The whole intergrid thing needs to be figured out more by the Architecture Working Group, etc. But again, we're getting a bit off topic.
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli stretches
[12:44] Kitty Barnett: that just means it's a real meeting! :p
[12:44] Geneko Nemeth: The new login manager is in the tree already?
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: Not yet, Gen. That's next on my list
[12:45] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Hehe, good point :D
[12:45] Jacek Antonelli: I was telling someone yesterday... SL meetings are just as long and boring as RL ones, but with more furries. :D
[12:45] Kitty Barnett giggles and looks around... true :p
[12:46] Geneko Nemeth: You could probably speed things up with voice...
[12:46] Kitty Barnett: people would just talk more then :p
[12:46] Geneko Nemeth: And I think the reason it is slow is because most of the time we're waiting. So maybe if out-of-order is encouraged...
[12:46] Jacek Antonelli: Yick, voice adds all sorts of problems. And yeah, then you get people chattering off topic in voice, hehe
[12:47] Geneko Nemeth: Then again I won't be able to do stuff without all you guys realizing that.
[12:47] Geneko Nemeth: s/Then again/But then/
[12:48] Jacek Antonelli: hehe, no covert trips to the bathroom or to get a snack when using voice ;)
[12:48] Kitty Barnett: or playing music! :(
[12:48] Armin Weatherwax: the good thing about chat is that you have a trancript ... and if you can't come you can read it later
[12:48] Jacek Antonelli: Yep
[12:48] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. So. I think we've covered everything we need to cover today
[12:48] Geneko Nemeth is actually splitting patches from one monolithic diff
[12:48] Armin Weatherwax: the bad thing are the typos
[12:49] Jacek Antonelli: Imp 1.2 is coming along well. Our target for release before the end of September is achievable. Everything's on track and good. *thumbs up*
[12:49] Armin Weatherwax: yay
[12:49] Kitty Barnett: yayyyyyy for Jacek and McCabe! :)
[12:49] Geneko Nemeth: It's going to be faster than Viewer 2009!
[12:49] Jacek Antonelli: And Armin! :D
[12:49] Kitty Barnett: oops and Armin! hehe
[12:49] Armin Weatherwax: blushes
[12:50] Jacek Antonelli: After 1.2, we'll be rebasing to SL 1.23, and then we can begin playing with Mm's new HUD/floater project :)
[12:50] Geneko Nemeth: But what is this? Linden Lab is coining new words! Oh noes we're all doomed!
[12:51] Armin Weatherwax: Dun dun DUUUUUN! O_o
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: I think that's all for today. Any last comments before we adjourn?
[12:51] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm...
[12:51] Kitty Barnett: is there an Imprudence bear? (sorry, so used to asking for bears at meetings :p)
[12:52] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, Linden Lab is introducing "Looks" and "Ensemble" in their new Viewer 2009. ("Looks" and "Ensemble" )
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: Hee
[12:52] Geneko Nemeth: Err, I mean
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: I'll have to make an Imprudence bear for next week :)
[12:52] Geneko Nemeth: And, do you take Washbears(Raccoons)?
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: And give him a T-shirt like this one I'm wearing
[12:53] Kitty Barnett nod-nods.... inventory hardlinks should be a part of 2.0 I think :o there's asset definitions in the trunk on the SVN anyway
[12:53] Geneko Nemeth: And um, I fixed Look at Last Chatter!
[12:53] Geneko Nemeth: </gloating>
[12:53] Armin Weatherwax: ah, geneko, i tried that. its annoying
[12:53] Kitty Barnett: whoo! :)
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: Gen: Ooh, nice. Patch? *makes gimme hands*
[12:53] Kitty Barnett giggles
[12:53] Armin Weatherwax: i got dizzy
[12:53] Geneko Nemeth: It's just massive removal of code... no new code added.
[12:54] Kitty Barnett: I always hated look at last chatter.. I can't hit that shortcut on my keyboard
[12:54] Geneko Nemeth: Patch coming up in ten minutes (hopefully).
[12:54] Geneko Nemeth: Ctrl+\... not that hard...
[12:54] Kitty Barnett: it takes Ctrl+Alt (Alt Gr) to make \ though
[12:54] Kitty Barnett: so Ctrl+\ is impossible
[12:54] Geneko Nemeth: Ow.
[12:54] Geneko Nemeth: What kind of keyboard?
[12:55] Kitty Barnett: azerty keyboard layout
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: Tried switching UI language to french?
[12:55] Kitty Barnett: err.. since I don't speak French that might get confusing :p
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:55] Armin Weatherwax: arg. my typing animation is broken
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's adjourn, I think
[12:56] Geneko Nemeth: <menu_item_call label="Regarder le dernier intervenant" name="Look at Last Chatter" shortcut="alt|V"/>
[12:56] Armin Weatherwax: Ctrl+Alt (Alt Gr) to make \ also on german keyboard
[12:56] Kitty Barnett: yay.. I'm not alone!
[12:57] Jacek Antonelli: We need customizable shortcuts :D
[12:57] Geneko Nemeth: Find skins/default/xui/en-us/, search for "Look at Last Chatter" and change the shoutcut.
[12:57] Armin Weatherwax: but its xui - so you can change the xml file (forgot which though)
[12:57] Kitty Barnett: I know... but I'm lazy like that.... it's more fun to complain about it too :p
[12:57] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:57] Armin Weatherwax: ++
[12:58] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's adjourn. Thanks for coming, everyone! Remember to bring your spanking paddles to punish McCabe next week >:D
[12:58] Kitty Barnett: woohoo! lol
[12:58] Mm Alder: bye
[12:58] Kitty Barnett: have a lovely day/evening still everyone :)
[12:58] Armin Weatherwax: i can search for the last chatter lock i made some time ago. its buggy and i didnt think about fixing because i got dizzy by my av looking around all the time
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: All right. I'll post the patch in IRC in a bit, hopefull I haven't broke anything...
[12:59] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks, Gen
[12:59] Jacek Antonelli: Bye, all!
[12:59] Armin Weatherwax: bye :)