ImpDev Meetups/2009-09-15

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Summary

ImpDev Meetup for September 15, 2009.

  • Viewer recompile/link time could be improved a lot by refactoring and splitting up nhe newview code into related chunks.
  • Jacek has just gotten past a mental block with the login manager feature. She is making progress on it now, but expects it to keep her occupied until the end of the month, so she has asked for help with testing and fixing bugs on the other features.
  • If Jacek can't get the login manager stuff done by the end of the month, we can ship with Meerkat's grid manager interface as a temporary solution. This would be preferable to delaying the release.
  • McCabe has been enhancing the avatar scanner/radar with some features from Dale Glass's implementation.
  • McCabe has also fixed nearly all of the bugs in the Windlight toolbar tab.
  • Double-click in-world teleport should have an optional confirmation dialog.
  • McCabe has upped the bandwidth settings: default 1000, max 5000 (kbps?). Jacek thinks settings that high probably don't actually help much for most people, but doesn't object to raising them.
  • We may want to implement the adult_compliant code (see links), depending on how long we think it will be before version 1.3 (with SL 1.23 base) is released.
  • We may want to upgrade the version of OpenJPEG we are using. Jacek doesn't want to do this for 1.2, though, because it could delay things too long.
  • Things still seem on track to release by the end of the month, although the login manager might be a close call. If worst comes to worst, we'll just use Meerkat's interface for 1.2, then finish our version for 1.3.

Links

Transcript

[12:55] McCabe Maxsted: aha!
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: Compare with Kakurady where you there is no correct way to pronounce it.
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli grumbles and rubs her eyes
[12:55] Kitty Barnett: hey-ies Jackek :)
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: Or rather, every way is correct.
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: I guess it's my turn for the spankings this week, huh?
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted waves to jacek :)
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth eeps.
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted: haha yup
[12:55] Armin Weatherwax: hi :)
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted: phew :)
[12:56] McCabe Maxsted: welcome back to consciousness
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: What's been discussed so far?
[12:56] Kitty Barnett wants an SL client her subconscious can use while she's asleep :o at least 7 hours of SL time a day! :p
[12:57] McCabe Maxsted: hmm, irc, geneko's name, paddles
[12:57] McCabe Maxsted: and pretty particles
[12:57] Geneko Nemeth: Patches.
[12:57] McCabe Maxsted: haha kitty.... I dreamed I compiled the client last night >.>
[12:58] McCabe Maxsted: maybe I was trying to build an SL™ in my head?
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: Wow! w
[12:58] Kitty Barnett giggles... I hate rebuilding the client... almost an hour wasted waiting :(
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: That would be like Ellen of the webcomic El Goonish Shive!
[12:58] McCabe Maxsted: a pleasant discovery: exactly two episodes of arrested development for me :)
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm, it's not that bad, if you only touched newview then only those modified files would need recompiled.
[12:59] Armin Weatherwax: er - compiler cache ?
[12:59] Geneko Nemeth: And on Linux you can tell make to run multiple jobs together to take advantage of your multi-core professor. Err, processor.
[12:59] Kitty Barnett: RLVa is included in llagent.h so it's a 80% recompile anytime I touch something in the header
[12:59] McCabe Maxsted: unless you touch something like llprimitve.h, then you're basically compiling everything
[12:59] McCabe Maxsted: or llagent, yeah
[12:59] McCabe Maxsted: I hate that one
[12:59] Geneko Nemeth: Ow
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Bleh, yeah.
[13:00] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm...?
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: I think we can do a lot of reorganizing to speed up complining and reduce the amount of recompiling necessary. But it would take time
[13:01] McCabe Maxsted: something has to be done about the link times, too. Visual Studio doesn't link worth shit
[13:01] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm, I touched llagent.cpp and didn't have to recompile most files...
[13:01] Kitty Barnett: llagent.h though, not the cpp :)
[13:01] McCabe Maxsted: try changing llagent.h.... it's everywhere!
[13:01] Kitty Barnett: and with incremental linking the wait isn't so bad :o
[13:01] Geneko Nemeth: Ow ow ow ow ow.
[13:02] Kitty Barnett: the thing I hate the most is that the sim disconnects the client after 30 or so seconds which makes tracing an immense pain :(
[13:02] Geneko Nemeth: Get an OpenSim?
[13:02] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, link times could be reduced too. The biggest problem is that newview has hundreds of files that are all being linked together into the final product every compile. They could be grouped together to reduce link times and recompiling
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: any parts with a good chance to break out of that monolith?
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: (i mean without getting mad)
[13:04] McCabe Maxsted: well, there's the floaters and the panels
[13:05] Kitty Barnett: a lot of the floaters and panels could go into the llui project instead I guess
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: :)
[13:05] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm... best not.
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. They could be split out, but not into llui, I feel. llui is for abstract UI classes
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: ^5's kitty
[13:05] Geneko Nemeth: I thought llui is supposed to just be a OpenGL UI Toolkit.
[13:06] Kitty Barnett: then again, llagent.h is used in a ton of floaters too :o
[13:06] Jacek Antonelli: There could be floaters / panels link targets within newview, though. But anyway
[13:06] Jacek Antonelli: We should talk about progress towards 1.2
[13:08] Geneko Nemeth loses interest.
[13:08] Jacek Antonelli: I've been working on the login manager thing, but I've been having a bit of a mental block with it. I think I've finally gotten past that, but I think just that feature will keep me occupied me until the end of the month
[13:08] Jacek Antonelli: So I could use some help from you guys (McCabe and Armin I mean) to test and fix issues with the other things now
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted: ahh, I was wondering why I hadn't seen anything pushed in a while. Sure, no problem
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted will be excited when that's done. I
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted: 've been wanting to explore the opensim grids with my preferred client
[13:10] Geneko Nemeth thinks he could be improve it somewhat.
[13:10] Armin Weatherwax: ok, i pull it and test, too. the login manager thing is a beast though and it shouldn't stop 1.2 from releasing soon
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted nods
[13:10] Geneko Nemeth: Login Manager that is.
[13:11] Jacek Antonelli: Geneko: It's the improving it part that is the main effort now. Just porting the feature from Meerkat was pretty simple.
[13:12] Jacek Antonelli: Armin: I agree. If I can't get it figured out by the end of the month, we can release with Meerkat's version, then improve it for 1.3
[13:12] Geneko Nemeth: I'll pull it too.
[13:12] McCabe Maxsted: cool
[13:12] McCabe Maxsted: maybe post on impdev about what improvements we should make, so we can get a good idea?
[13:13] Jacek Antonelli: Sure
[13:13] Geneko Nemeth needs to join ImpDev first...
[13:13] Jacek Antonelli: Do you mean improvements with the login manager, or other stuff?
[13:14] Geneko Nemeth: "Firefox 无法在 edwards.hostingrails.com 找到该服务器。" T_T
[13:14] McCabe Maxsted was talking about everyone posting about the login manager, but everything should be fair game, ne?
[13:14] Armin Weatherwax: of course :)
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: Geneko: Hrm, that's our old host. Your DNS cache may be out of date?
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: Oh -- I probably forgot to update the link on the homepage >_<
[13:15] Geneko Nemeth: Yow.
[13:15] McCabe Maxsted: http://lists.imprudenceviewer.org/listinfo.cgi/impdev-imprudenceviewer.org
[13:16] Geneko Nemeth: Whew, for one moment I thought my (Windows!) wireless driver tempbricked my wireless router again.
[13:17] Armin Weatherwax: some day in future someone has to explain me why people are using windows
[13:17] Jacek Antonelli: hehehehe
[13:17] McCabe Maxsted: haha
[13:17] McCabe Maxsted whistles innocently...
[13:17] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[13:18] Kitty Barnett prefers it over anything else so there! *sticks out tongue at Armin* :p
[13:18] Geneko Nemeth: Well... it is Woe32 but it does have a quite complete and modern destop environment.
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. Anyway. More progress updates
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe, tell us what you've been up to?
[13:18] McCabe Maxsted: okay
[13:19] Armin Weatherwax: ok, i deserve it Kitty :)
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: speaking of windows, I applied two patches from Robin Cornelius last night that should make building on windows easier (develop.py now finds express versions and python in certain locations). I haven't really verified they work, but so much as don't break anything, hehe. Hopefully some express visual studio users will be able to tell me
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: this morning I finally got around to picking up that old radar branch I started. It's pretty much done except for a viewer crash (whee!) and I haven't tested the estate butons yet
[13:21] McCabe Maxsted: I went back to dale glass' old radar and put it into two tabs, one for avatars, one for estate managers, kinda like he had
[13:21] McCabe Maxsted: I think it's a better alternative to the avatar scanner mess, at least
[13:21] McCabe Maxsted: let's see, what else *checks git log*
[13:23] McCabe Maxsted: added the block click sit change from emerald as a debug setting; not sure if we want it as anything more htan that
[13:23] Geneko Nemeth: I'd rather have most of the avatar scanner functionality in contaxt menus.
[13:24] McCabe Maxsted: WindLight® settings can now be selected with next/prev buttons in the windlight window. I've fixed all but one of the bugs with the windlight toolbar (it doesn't display the currect preset upon second opening of the pull down) but let me know if you spot any others
[13:24] Armin Weatherwax: dales scanner is filling almost all my screen, thats why i avoid using it and still use my mystitool
[13:24] McCabe Maxsted: context menus would be pretty hefty; yeah; as it stands now, the size of the radar+plus minimap is about the default inv size?
[13:25] Geneko Nemeth: We'll want something like the Active Speakers dialog, and probably intergrate the radar with it.
[13:25] McCabe Maxsted: that's basically what it is
[13:26] Geneko Nemeth: Probably better if it can be triggered unfocusable.
[13:26] McCabe Maxsted: I'd like it to eventually be able to be torn off
[13:26] Geneko Nemeth: Torn off?
[13:27] McCabe Maxsted: detached from the minimap?
[13:27] Geneko Nemeth: Was it attached to the minimap to being with?
[13:27] McCabe Maxsted: let me find an old screenshot
[13:28] McCabe Maxsted: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mccabemaxsted/3808781760/ imagine that with two tabs and better spacing
[13:29] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm... that could be made into a panel.
[13:29] McCabe Maxsted: it is a panel, yeah
[13:29] Armin Weatherwax: hm. is it possible to have the background of the scrollist with alpha?
[13:29] McCabe Maxsted: sure
[13:29] McCabe Maxsted: would you be able to read it though?
[13:30] Kitty Barnett: you can read the friends' list fine that way :o
[13:30] Armin Weatherwax: but you can also read the mysti radar
[13:30] Geneko Nemeth: Accidental teleport.
[13:30] McCabe Maxsted: wb
[13:30] McCabe Maxsted: double click? hehe
[13:30] Geneko Nemeth: See that's why I don't like double click teleport.
[13:31] McCabe Maxsted: could have a separate entry in colors_base.xml for lists that we want transparrent when say unfocused
[13:31] Jacek Antonelli: (Hrm, perhaps double click TP needs a confirmation dialog?)
[13:31] Kitty Barnett: double click tp on landmarks? :o I always hated that one :o
[13:31] Geneko Nemeth: Definitely.
[13:32] Jacek Antonelli: Kitty: Double click in-world
[13:32] McCabe Maxsted: or on the mini map
[13:32] Kitty Barnett: Geneko looked like she tp'ed off-sim though :o intra-sim tp shouldn't show particles :o
[13:32] Armin Weatherwax: or make it more comlicated ... drag lm into minimap to tp xD
[13:32] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, hope position.
[13:32] Geneko Nemeth: *home
[13:32] Armin Weatherwax: complicated*
[13:32] McCabe Maxsted: haha!
[13:33] McCabe Maxsted: that would be evil
[13:33] Geneko Nemeth: I'm on a release version of Snowglobe, not having my patches because I'm too lazy to build llmozlib (and I had the pain of building it once).
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: Ah. Aaannnyway.
[13:34] McCabe Maxsted: geneko pointed out to me on IRC that intrasim tping doesn't show a progress screen, but using the map it does, and so does touble click tping across region boundaries; we should look into fixing that too
[13:34] McCabe Maxsted: yes, let's see, what else? *checks*
[13:34] Geneko Nemeth: No McCabe I didn't point that out.
[13:34] Armin Weatherwax: music title in chat. my vote: take dale's version
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted has been busy lately. I upped the max bandwidth setting to 5000, default 1000; a LOT of differing opinions on that
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted: and didn't you? *could have sworn*
[13:35] Geneko Nemeth: And it's not "fixing" - intra sim TP shouldn't show a progress bar to begin with, just fade out / fade in.
[13:35] Geneko Nemeth: Plus some FOV changes. Fwoosh!
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted: ahh, thanks armin. I'd forgotten we never decided on which one to merge
[13:35] Geneko Nemeth: No, that would be inter-sim TP...
[13:36] Kitty Barnett: doesn't the viewer/sim automatically throttle bandwidth anyway though?
[13:36] Geneko Nemeth: Who wrote the other ones?
[13:36] Geneko Nemeth: The viewer does. Sometimes it can be stupid, for example if I'm connecting from China,
[13:36] Geneko Nemeth: I get 10% packet loss which the client thinks is a symptom of too high a bandwidth.
[13:36] McCabe Maxsted: making the loading screens consistent, I meant
[13:36] Geneko Nemeth: So it throttles to 50kb.
[13:37] Geneko Nemeth: (My connection is one megabit.)
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: it's weird to me taht an action which is basically the same could have two different results
[13:37] Armin Weatherwax: midian city recommends to set bandwith *low* to reduce lag. dunno if it makes sense though
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: when I don't see much of a difference between what I'm doing
[13:37] Jacek Antonelli: I suspect that increasing the bandwidth meter is mostly a placebo effect.
[13:37] Geneko Nemeth: Makes sense.
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: yeah, it does kitty
[13:38] Geneko Nemeth: If the setting is too high, packets might need to be dropped because they can't reach the client in time.
[13:38] Geneko Nemeth: Or later packets delayed.
[13:38] McCabe Maxsted: although the viewer assumes crazy packet loss and doubles your max setting anyway
[13:38] Geneko Nemeth: Isn't that OpenSim?
[13:38] Geneko Nemeth: I think OpenSim tries to send you 8 times your bandwidth setting by default...
[13:39] McCabe Maxsted: does it? That doesn't surprise me
[13:39] McCabe Maxsted: I was hoping if nothing else, it'd improve initial texture fetching times for some people
[13:40] Kitty Barnett: one probably nice feature would be to combine Time Dilation/Pending Downloads/Uploads into an easy "sim health" indicator
[13:40] Geneko Nemeth: We do have one. Lag meter. Remember?
[13:40] Kitty Barnett: the last two are responsible for a whole lot of grief and failed rezzes/lost inventory on take
[13:40] McCabe Maxsted: you mean just one bar?
[13:40] Kitty Barnett: it doesn't take stuck pending downloads/uploads into account
[13:41] Geneko Nemeth: McCabe, no, Help -> Lag Meter.
[13:41] Geneko Nemeth actually totally forgot that one too despite having translated all its text.
[13:41] McCabe Maxsted: yeah
[13:42] McCabe Maxsted: I was thinking more of a bar in the status bar, like the packet loss meter does right now?
[13:42] Kitty Barnett nod-nods :o
[13:42] Geneko Nemeth: Who uses those meters anyway? (I do actually.)
[13:42] McCabe Maxsted: I do too, hehe
[13:43] McCabe Maxsted has always had it in for that search bar...
[13:43] Jacek Antonelli: I do. Haven't had Search enabled for a loooong time
[13:43] Kitty Barnett has a metered download limit so I definitely always keep an eye on the bandwidth one :p
[13:43] Geneko Nemeth also have a metered limit but it's too high for him to care.
[13:44] Armin Weatherwax: apropos search ... anything new about the lindens try to get adult schedule?
[13:44] Geneko Nemeth: Now any adult stuff on PG or Mature land is an violation of ToS.
[13:45] Geneko Nemeth: But you can't differenciate "Mature" and "Adult" in Chinese anyway.
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli makes Geneko put on pants
[13:45] Armin Weatherwax: no, software side - leave out whether it makes sense or not
[13:45] Geneko Nemeth: Mature sim, non-human creature, I don't have to make pants.
[13:45] Geneko Nemeth: s/make/wear/
[13:46] McCabe Maxsted: here's the way I understand it: as soon as you log on with a 1.23-based viewer, LL's servers store your adult content settings, and keep 'em on you no matter what you viewer you use after (I got caught by that a few days ago when I couldn't tp into a bunch of sims and thought I was going crazy). I'm guessing search settings are going to work the same way
[13:47] Armin Weatherwax: and any time given when 1.22 will stop to be usable ?
[13:47] McCabe Maxsted was actually thinking we should do some trickery and make sure Imp is just always adult into we base it on 1.23 >:D
[13:47] McCabe Maxsted: it'll still be usable
[13:47] McCabe Maxsted: but you just will get generic "cannot tp to this sim" if your adult content setting blocks you
[13:47] Armin Weatherwax: me votes for :Imp is just always adult
[13:48] Geneko Nemeth: What about Teens?
[13:48] Jacek Antonelli: Heh. I vote for getting 1.2 released and then moving on to 1.3 ;)
[13:48] Armin Weatherwax: the TOS still says only adults are allowed on the main grid
[13:48] Armin Weatherwax: so there are no teens
[13:49] Geneko Nemeth: No, TG users!
[13:49] McCabe Maxsted: hehehe
[13:49] McCabe Maxsted: ahh
[13:49] Jacek Antonelli: There is the Teen SL
[13:49] McCabe Maxsted: the TG is going the way of the dodo
[13:49] Kitty Barnett: teens live on agni too so that's technically not accurate :p
[13:49] Geneko Nemeth: And besides I think you can expose some capability in viewer login to say it understands the adult setting.
[13:49] Armin Weatherwax: but teen sl can not get on adult sims anyway ?
[13:49] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, it's inaccurate and confusing, but teens can't access the rest of Agni.
[13:49] McCabe Maxsted: I was thinking of just sending the messages, yeah; not worrying about all the other ui junk
[13:50] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm... adult...
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: Right. Well. *ahem* Let's focus, please.
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: There are only 2 weeks left in September. What needs to be done before we can release 1.2?
[13:51] Kitty Barnett: still display adult sims as "Adult" though? might get very disconcerting otherwise
[13:51] Geneko Nemeth: https://mail.google.com/mail/#search/label%3A[sldev]+adult/12315362056aeddb [sldev] adult_compliant flag (SVC-4644)
[13:51] Geneko Nemeth: Sorry...
[13:51] McCabe Maxsted: okay, from my angle, I need to due some performance testing; I have some branches that should help but haven't stopped implementing things long enough to test 'em, hehe
[13:52] Geneko Nemeth: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/sldev/2009-August/015013.html
[13:52] McCabe Maxsted: the windows build situation's been sorted, although I think we should take a serious look at optomizing openjpeg if we can
[13:52] Jacek Antonelli: Optimizing how?
[13:53] McCabe Maxsted: compiler settings, different versions. There's 1.3, the latest svn, and 2.0...
[13:53] McCabe Maxsted: (not recent, but they haven't been benchmarked)
[13:54] Geneko Nemeth: But does it do imcomplete bitstream decoding?
[13:54] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. That can wait for a later version, though.
[13:54] McCabe Maxsted: texture loading times are the biggest complaint I've heard..
[13:55] Armin Weatherwax: so go for http texture :)
[13:55] Jacek Antonelli: The version of OpenJPEG we have know is known working, just slow. I don't want us to end up delaying 1.2 for a month while we test and debug OpenJPEG
[13:55] Armin Weatherwax: but not for 1.2
[13:56] Armin Weatherwax: jacek ++
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Our job right now is to release 1.2, and have it work, and get back in the "competition".
[13:56] Geneko Nemeth: The decoding is slow but reading cache is slower and fetching textures even slower.
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed, Geneko
[13:57] McCabe Maxsted nods, okay
[13:57] Geneko Nemeth: Updating OpenJPEG would be nice if it's just a piece of cake job but it's not the bottleneck here. Or it might be, I'm just saying subjective opinions without proof.
[13:58] Jacek Antonelli: From my end, I need to work out the login manager stuff. That will be my focus. I also need to check the perms for object export, although if I can get someone else to volunteer to do that, I'd appreciate it
[13:59] Armin Weatherwax: as long as we dont have more objective benchmarks i wouldn't care about 2 or 3 fps difference
[14:00] Geneko Nemeth: Okay, can I go to a sandwich fast food restaurant now?
[14:01] McCabe Maxsted: haha
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: I think we're nearly done now, yes
[14:01] Armin Weatherwax: that could also be because your sunset is more fps consuming than noon (e.g.)
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: Any final comments before we adjourn?
[14:01] Armin Weatherwax: yay, sandwich :)
[14:01] McCabe Maxsted: one more, but geneko you don't need to be around for it if you're hungry :)
[14:02] McCabe Maxsted: anyone have any thoughts/objections to disabling logging out by afk?
[14:02] Geneko Nemeth: It's okay, I'll listen.
[14:02] Geneko Nemeth: Oh, I mean no.
[14:02] Geneko Nemeth: If it's disableable, yes.
[14:02] Geneko Nemeth: Man that is one messed-up casuality.
[14:02] Armin Weatherwax: disableable it. and idle afk with it
[14:03] Armin Weatherwax: pse
[14:03] McCabe Maxsted: I was thinking of leaving idle afk
[14:03] McCabe Maxsted: and just making sure it didn't sneak up and bite you hehe
[14:03] Jacek Antonelli: Sounds good
[14:03] Armin Weatherwax: ok, lets discuss idle afk next week (or so)
[14:03] Geneko Nemeth: Oh right. I'm running BitTorrent. The badly written old Mainline in fact >_<
[14:03] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, please
[14:04] McCabe Maxsted: okay. And please try my 1.2.0-next branch! It has all my commits as of this morning in it
[14:04] McCabe Maxsted: as well as jacek's backup and kitty's rlva
[14:04] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[14:04] Jacek Antonelli: Great
[14:04] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's adjourn, get sandwiches, sleep, whatever
[14:05] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, all!