ImpDev Meetups/2010-03-23

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Summary

ImpDev Meetup for March 23, 2010.

Transcript

[11:59] Armin Weatherwax: Hi :)
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Armin
[12:01] Armin Weatherwax: Hi :)
[12:01] Opensource Obscure: ciao !
[12:02] Opensource Obscure: was the meeting supposed to start now?
[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, it's starting soon
[12:03] Armin Weatherwax: we have some academic freedom in starting time
[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:03] Opensource Obscure: armin, i didn't have more luck with different gcc ... 4.1 4.2 4.3 or 4.4
[12:04] Armin Weatherwax: hm. I'm using 4.3
[12:04] Opensource Obscure: oh, i already told you that sorry xD
[12:05] Opensource Obscure: are we going to spam AWgroupies chat to call people here?
[12:05] Armin Weatherwax: I had segfaults while compiling some months ago, but that was at random and i found out due bad memory
[12:05] Tho Millgrove: hello
[12:05] Armin Weatherwax: Hi :)
[12:05] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Tho
[12:06] Armin Weatherwax needs a "Hi :)" button
[12:06] Tho Millgrove: how are all of you?
[12:06] Tho Millgrove: lol Armin
[12:06] Tho Millgrove: with a pulldown menu to make the emoticon optional
[12:07] Armin Weatherwax: and automatic detection of new avatars in chat range
[12:07] Tho Millgrove: and an enemies list so it can automatically say something else for people you can't stand
[12:07] Armin Weatherwax: lol
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: OO: No, I don't think the AWGroupies should be here. This is an Imprudence decision, they'd just be a distraction
[12:08] Tho Millgrove: lol
[12:08] Opensource Obscure: yeah not sure why i said that
[12:08] Tho Millgrove: I've given up trying to get KDE to play nice over a VNC connection, and am switching to Gnome (bleh)
[12:09] Tho Millgrove: that had me distracted, and I almost forgot the meeting
[12:09] Opensource Obscure: by the way you recently conquered another user, as an italian Linux friend got the best SL experience ever when using Imprudence
[12:09] Jacek Antonelli: yay :)
[12:09] Opensource Obscure: does 'conquered' make sense?
[12:10] Tho Millgrove: infatuated?
[12:10] Jacek Antonelli: I don't know. We didn't use an army. How about "converted" ?
[12:11] Opensource Obscure: : ) that's better.
[12:11] Tho Millgrove: so you have missionaries instead ;-)
[12:11] Tho Millgrove: it works for Apple
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[12:12] Opensource Obscure: I recently removed CTRL from as much shortcuts I could, and I think I like it
[12:12] Armin Weatherwax: :) good to have a pray hud
[12:12] Antonius Misfit: Halllooooo
[12:12] Armin Weatherwax: hi :)
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Tony :)
[12:12] Opensource Obscure: hey Antonius
[12:12] Antonius Misfit: hey Armin, OO
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Unfortunately it seems that McCabe won't be able to attend today, so I'll have to whip him later until he cries.
[12:14] Armin Weatherwax: poor McCabe
[12:14] Antonius Misfit: just stopping in to say hi and find out what up regarding the TPV policy and Imprudence
[12:15] Antonius Misfit: wb OO
[12:15] Armin Weatherwax: wb
[12:15] Opensource Obscure: CRASH! 7th one, today :D
[12:15] Opensource Obscure: thanks.
[12:15] Armin Weatherwax: Hi :)
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: Antonius: That's what we're here to decide
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Geneko
[12:15] Geneko Nemeth: Oioi.
[12:16] Armin Weatherwax: I heard that
[12:16] Armin Weatherwax: anybody missing?
[12:17] Antonius Misfit: McCabe, obviously
[12:17] Armin Weatherwax: indeed
[12:18] Jacek Antonelli: Since McCabe can't make it, we might as well start now, I think
[12:19] Antonius Misfit: ok
[12:19] Jacek Antonelli: Today I want to come to a decision about how we will handle the Third Party Viewer policy, and what our official stance on it will be.
[12:19] Jacek Antonelli: Here's the link for reference: http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php
[12:21] Jacek Antonelli: A couple days ago I went through the policy and made a list of all the actions we would have to take if we decided to fully comply with it. Not counting the parts which say we must "agree" to do something, since that's not really an action.
[12:23] Antonius Misfit: most the policy is okay, except Section 7(d), which seems to conflict with GPL's disclaimer liability
[12:23] Jacek Antonelli: There is not too much: Add a "customer support" link to the forums, write a privacy policy and link to it, disable the Linux version from automatically registering for SLURLs, and fix a small issue related to exporting shapes.
[12:24] Armin Weatherwax: the main problem is that the intention might be ok and quite reasonable even - but as it stands there not really looks like acceptable
[12:24] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed
[12:25] Antonius Misfit: why disable the Linux version from registering the SLURL protocol?
[12:25] Geneko Nemeth: It does this without prompt.
[12:25] Antonius Misfit: ah
[12:25] Jacek Antonelli: Right
[12:25] Opensource Obscure: i'd suggest to separate the issues - armin , when you say "as it stands there not really looks like acceptable" do you refer to GPL compliancy or other aspects of TPV?
[12:25] Geneko Nemeth: And no prompt -> no consent.
[12:26] Jacek Antonelli: The big problem in my mind as not the actions we would have to do, but rather the things we have to "agree" to. There are several things in here that I disagree with.
[12:26] Antonius Misfit: why not just check if it already registered and leave it it exists?
[12:26] Geneko Nemeth: That's still not "user consent".
[12:26] Antonius Misfit: ah
[12:26] Armin Weatherwax: partially to the GPL compliancy, but even if it is compliant we cant possibly be responsible for what our users do
[12:28] Tho Millgrove: no, you can't
[12:29] Tho Millgrove: and neither can any of the other viewer makers
[12:29] Opensource Obscure: oh, responsability. about that, are we going to read TPV from the 'legal' point of view only - or do we want to also consider that LL is a not litigious company at all? i'm not sure i'm clear..
[12:30] Antonius Misfit: best to err on the legal side
[12:30] Geneko Nemeth: LL? Doesn't sue? The times of proceed-and-permit license have long gone.
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: Here are the parts I don't agree to. If you have others, feel free to add them. ...
[12:30] Tho Millgrove: LL has not been a litigious company, but there is an ongoing and significant change of staff
[12:31] Tho Millgrove: so they may become more so; who can know?
[12:31] Opensource Obscure: makes sense
[12:31] Armin Weatherwax: but we can't hope the lion in the cage isn't hungry. Don Quixote just had luck.
[12:31] Geneko Nemeth: Just look at their hoarding on the phrase "SL" .
[12:32] Jacek Antonelli: 2b (a strict creator check is too inflexible, and ignores some useful and legal cases); 2d (much too broad. what is "harm anyone"? what is "the law"?); 4ai (I won't agree to "update or delete any data" ahead of time, without knowing what the data will be); ...
[12:33] Antonius Misfit: 2b does stomp on the cases where the creator explicity permit license to export their creations, because the Lindens defer to the perms system.
[12:34] Antonius Misfit: despite the perms system not adequately expressing such wishes
[12:35] Armin Weatherwax: also german customers right which allows copying CDs and DVDs even if differently stated on the medium
[12:35] Armin Weatherwax: (for personal use only)
[12:35] Jacek Antonelli: 4biii (likewise, I won't broadly agree to make "any changes" to our privacy practices, without knowing what changes they would want); 7a (too broad and vague, I won't agree to be responsible for everything in the viewer); ....
[12:35] Antonius Misfit: the only workaround the Lindens stated on opensouce-dev was to host those creations "outside" of SL
[12:36] Geneko Nemeth: Not to mention that GPL might be incompatible with 7a.
[12:36] Geneko Nemeth: Oh, and 7a seems to be incompatible with 7d as well.
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: 7c (too broad, LL is the only one to determine what is "legal liability or harm"?); 7d (I won't agree to to assume the risks, expenses, defects, etc.) ....
[12:37] Armin Weatherwax: just can't find it - is the part about adding or removing *code* at Lindens will still in?
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, that's next on my list
[12:38] Opensource Obscure: my interpretation of 7a is that no devs will be hold responsible of what people will do with their clients. that's why they're separating *uses* from *features/content*
[12:38] Opensource Obscure: users will be.
[12:38] Jacek Antonelli: 8c (I won't agree to stop using or distributing a third party viewer just because LL says so); 8d (I won't agree to add or remove anything from the viewer just because LL says so)
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Those were my objections. Any other objections we should consider?
[12:39] Opensource Obscure: (( as you know, i'm not an actual contributor to Imprudence, so if my comments are not appropriate now & here just tell! :) ))
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Your comments are welcome, OO :)
[12:40] Geneko Nemeth is not actually contributing to Imprudence either...
[12:40] Armin Weatherwax: ideas are also contributions :)
[12:40] Antonius Misfit: I'm just a user pretty much, but I would like to give viewer development a shot one of these days
[12:41] Jacek Antonelli: Basically, I'm not going to agree to be LL's puppet and do whatever they say. And I'm also not going to agree to assume a ton of extra legal liability.
[12:41] Opensource Obscure: re: 8c, i'd say that you would be free to keep distributing it, Jacek. LL would ban your account at most. no?
[12:41] Geneko Nemeth: And anyone else who uses Jacek's viewer.
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, if it came down to it, the worst case scenario is: they would ask, I would refuse (thus indicating that I don't agree to the policy), they would ban be (because I don't agree to the policy)
[12:42] Armin Weatherwax: I was long enough in a relationship with a lawyer to know they use *anything* against you if they want. even or esp if it is something you never thought they would
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: There may also be repercussions on our users. We need to figure out what those would be.
[12:44] Antonius Misfit: i did suggest over on SLU that devs might wind up stop developing for SL and move it over to OpenSim grids
[12:44] Tho Millgrove: (( yay OpenSim ;-) ))
[12:44] Ron Ghostaltar: so did I miss anything good?
[12:45] Opensource Obscure: i'll give you a transcript Ron
[12:45] Jacek Antonelli: One of the devilish things about this policy is that they say they can ban the developers from SL. That's one of their only ways of enforcing the policy, really. (The other is sending lawyers after you, for serious stuff)
[12:45] Ron Ghostaltar: thanks open
[12:46] Opensource Obscure: is that new? they can already ban me without reason
[12:46] Antonius Misfit: that's true
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, although the "for any reason or no reason" clause in the TOS does not mean exactly what it seems to mean
[12:47] Antonius Misfit: but in practice there has to be a reason, otherwise they risk bad PR
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: Here's an important question: If we don't agree, what are the consequences for our users?
[12:48] Armin Weatherwax: Well, honestly the TVP looks like it is designed to scare developer away, so they wouldn't need to ban them
[12:48] Geneko Nemeth: They risk banning from SL... but they risk banning anyway.
[12:48] Opensource Obscure: if you don't agree and you don't fake the viewer id, will people manage to connect to SL nonetheless?
[12:48] Ron Ghostaltar: here's the thing I've noticed about LL and this TPV reflects this
[12:49] Jacek Antonelli: Does the TPV say that you can only use viewers whose developer agrees to the TPV? *reading*
[12:49] Geneko Nemeth: Hmm, doesn't seem to have something like that...
[12:49] Ron Ghostaltar: LL needed the OSS devs to fix their broken viewer back in 1.9.... now that its a usuable product they don't need the devs nor do they want them as many TPV's are more popular then LL's own viewer
[12:50] Antonius Misfit: users may still use a third-party viewer that doesn't agree to TPV policy, but they assume "caveat emptor"
[12:50] Armin Weatherwax: dont think it say that, jacek. I believe we can disagree and the responsibility to use our viewer remains then at the user
[12:50] Opensource Obscure: it seems that as a user I can only use TPV if I agree and comply with TPV policy itself
[12:50] Ron Ghostaltar: even their SnowGlobe viewer reflects this as you give up ownership to any patches to LL if applied to the viewer's main branch
[12:51] Opensource Obscure: isnt that for legal reasons Ron? FSF does that as well, correct?
[12:51] Jacek Antonelli: OO: True, but there are different requirements for users versus developers
[12:51] Opensource Obscure the little devil's advocate
[12:51] Geneko Nemeth: It feels strange not to make these parts relating to users of TPV a part of the ToS.
[12:52] Opensource Obscure: true Geneko
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: Ah, here it is: 8c "If a Third-Party Viewer or your use or distribution of it violates this Policy or any Linden Lab policy, your permission to access Second Life using the Third-Party Viewer shall terminate automatically."
[12:52] Opensource Obscure: yah
[12:52] Antonius Misfit: ouch
[12:52] Opensource Obscure: so you 're still free to access using the official viewer ?
[12:53] Antonius Misfit: yeah
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah. The consequence for not agreeing to the policy, is that you cannot connect with a TPV. But you can connect with the normal SL client.
[12:53] Geneko Nemeth: Or any othe rviewer following the policy...
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: or Snowglobe
[12:53] Armin Weatherwax: from boys point of view any LL code based viewer violates the policy
[12:54] Jacek Antonelli: No, not other TPVs, even if they are compliant. "If you do not agree, you are not allowed to use Second Life through a Third-Party Viewer."
[12:54] Armin Weatherwax: and i share her view
[12:54] Geneko Nemeth: Well, the user could agree, but the viewer violates, and so the user can only use other viewers.
[12:54] Opensource Obscure: *the* thirdparty viewer. only the infringing one maybe?
[12:54] Opensource Obscure: what geneko said
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: No, "a" third-party viewer, but that's only if the *user* rejects the TPV completely.
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. I guess there are different consequences for not agree, versus agreeing but then violating it
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: Why bother making up the TPV instead of amending the ToS then.
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: (This is such a piece of shit legal document)
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: Lol
[12:55] Antonius Misfit: I agree
[12:55] Opensource Obscure: yay
[12:55] Geneko Nemeth: It's an illegal document, even.
[12:56] Geneko Nemeth: (GPL conflict)
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: 1a is particularly funny. The first two sentences cancel each other out, and the last sentence is redundant with another section. So they could have left out 1a completely, if they were thinking.
[12:57] Geneko Nemeth: I also don't like 1c1 just because.
[12:57] Geneko Nemeth: It's free advertisemement for LL.
[12:57] Opensource Obscure: is this correct? even if a viewer infringes on the policy, their users accounts are not at risk - unless user did *other* violations
[12:57] Jacek Antonelli: 1ci is fun, we can do things like this: http://imprudenceviewer.org/wiki/Downloads
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: XD
[12:58] Geneko Nemeth: Brilliant.
[12:58] Armin Weatherwax: : clicks
[12:59] Opensource Obscure: ahah
[12:59] Ron Ghostaltar: 1ci exists so there's no way you can confuse their viewer with a TPV so they don't have to deal with support issues with another viewer... ie pushing off all liability to the devs of the TPV
[13:00] Armin Weatherwax: we can also at the login screen state that we dont take responsibility for any harm that connecting to secondlife might cause XD
[13:00] Antonius Misfit: yup
[13:00] Geneko Nemeth: It makes sense, except only a Moron In A Hurry will mistake TPV s for 1PVs.
[13:00] Ron Ghostaltar: have you ever done tech support Geneko?
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[13:01] Ron Ghostaltar: like front man 1st level tech support?
[13:01] Tho Millgrove: here's Tateru's take on it, in case you've not seen it: http://www.massively.com/2010/03/22/second-life-third-party-viewer-policies-get-an-update-but-still/
[13:01] Geneko Nemeth: ... well, I guess not.
[13:01] Ron Ghostaltar: I've dealt with more idiots in the past then you could ever imagine
[13:01] Antonius Misfit: I've read Tateru's article and commented there
[13:02] Armin Weatherwax: sadly that article was spammed by some PN
[13:02] Tho Millgrove: yes, I just noticed that, Armin
[13:03] Jacek Antonelli: I can't see from the TPV whether the user's account would be banned, or they just have to stop using the TPV
[13:03] Jacek Antonelli: I looks to me like: Don't agree in the first place = can't use any TPV. Agree but then violate = can't use that specific TPV
[13:03] Geneko Nemeth: The user will be dealt with in Linden Lab's sole discretion.
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: Oh, indeed
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: "We may enforce this Policy in our sole discretion, including but not limited to by removing a Third-Party Viewer from the Viewer Directory and suspending or terminating the Second Life accounts of Developers or users of a Third-Party Viewer."
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: So there you have it. All developers and users of TPV put their accounts at risk. :)
[13:05] Tho Millgrove: that last one seems to be an encouragement for TPV developers to use alts
[13:05] Ron Ghostaltar: in other words "You will use our viewer or no viewer"
[13:05] Geneko Nemeth: That's nice. I'ive never tried any alts before. Maybe it is a good time as any...
[13:05] Opensource Obscure: so. *in the worst case scenario*, this policy is just an extension of something that already allowed them to ban and burn us as they like. let's consider more plausible scenarios:
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: I think I may resign from Imprudence. But I will be replaced by someone named Kacej Illenotna.
[13:06] Opensource Obscure: they don't say what happens if a dev changes idea
[13:06] Tho Millgrove: lol Jacek
[13:06] Opensource Obscure: ahaha
[13:06] Antonius Misfit: •´¨*•.¸. HahahaA •´¨*•.¸.
[13:06] Antonius Misfit: I almost thought you were serious, too
[13:06] Ron Ghostaltar: honestly I think the best thing to do is create a Disclaimer Agreement in the installer regarding the LL grid, if the user agrees the SL login config for the grid manager would be installed if they disagree it won't be installed into the grid manager
[13:07] Jacek Antonelli puts on a moustache so she won't be recognized
[13:07] Antonius Misfit: Ron: hmm, not a bad idea
[13:07] Armin Weatherwax: Kacej is that you ?
[13:07] Jacek Antonelli: Hi Nimra!
[13:07] Jacek Antonelli: Nimra Xawrehtaew :D
[13:08] Tho Millgrove: just call me 7h0
[13:09] Jacek Antonelli: How about a new feature? Whenever someone tries to log in to SL with Imprudence, it will pop up a window with a skull, poison, and radioactive warning symbols?
[13:09] Armin Weatherwax: do we have to learn russian now?
[13:09] Ron Ghostaltar: basically state that Imprudence is a Virtual Worlds Viewer and not specifically a Second Life viewer
[13:09] Opensource Obscure: AHA
[13:09] Antonius Misfit: If I dive into developement, I'd have be Suinotna Tifsim
[13:09] Geneko Nemeth: I already don't sign my commits as Geneko Nemeth. ^^
[13:09] Jacek Antonelli: Ron: That is one of the options on the table
[13:09] Opensource Obscure: maybe a Imprudence Disclaimer should be added, to make users aware of the devilish policy they're accepting. wouldn't it be great? é____è
[13:10] Opensource Obscure: i must go afk now. brb
[13:10] Ron Ghostaltar: OO: that's what I said earlier.. if they agree it would install SL settings otherwise only OpenSIM settings would be installed
[13:10] Jacek Antonelli: Bye OO, take care
[13:10] Geneko Nemeth: That's bad user experience, but for a good cause.
[13:10] Ron Ghostaltar: later OO
[13:11] Tho Millgrove: bye OO
[13:11] Jacek Antonelli: I was thinking one possibility would be to remove SL from the grid manager entirely. If the user wants to connect to it, they have to paste in the details themselves.
[13:11] Armin Weatherwax: no, better make them not aware. in some countrys vogonistically published policies are not usable on court
[13:11] Geneko Nemeth: I gotta go too, and would like to point out I also don't like 2.c.i which is a threat to user privacy and doesn't do what it's supposed to do.
[13:11] Jacek Antonelli: Okay Geneko, noted
[13:12] Jacek Antonelli: Take care
[13:12] Geneko Nemeth: (And you can't really hide IP addresses anyway)
[13:12] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's establish some firm positions. I think we agree that we do not (or can not) agree to the TPV policy as a whole?
[13:13] Armin Weatherwax: yes.
[13:13] Ron Ghostaltar: agreed
[13:13] Antonius Misfit: agreed
[13:13] Geneko Nemeth: Yes, we are unable to.
[13:13] Tho Millgrove: I don't see how you can
[13:13] Ron Ghostaltar: I don't think any sane contributer can
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: There are some parts of it which are sane, such as having a privacy policy. So I think we will do those parts even though we don't agree to the policy.
[13:14] Antonius Misfit: agreed on that, jacek
[13:14] Tho Millgrove: and I notice that aside from KirstenLee and METAbolt, nobody has rushed to be listed; which tells me the other TPV developers are struggling with this, too
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed
[13:15] Ron Ghostaltar: yup
[13:15] Tho Millgrove: yes, that's a good-faith approach, I think Jacek
[13:15] Armin Weatherwax: and we still only export creator content
[13:15] Ron Ghostaltar: how can anyone agree to take liability for contributed code?
[13:16] Armin Weatherwax: (unless a opensim grid provides better permissions)
[13:16] Jacek Antonelli: Here is another position to decide on. I know of two viewers who are quitting entirely (Rainbow and Luna). Do we continue with Imprudence, or close up shop?
[13:17] Tho Millgrove: there's a middle way, and that is drop SL, but continue with OS
[13:17] Tho Millgrove: (opensim, not open source, in that case)
[13:17] Jacek Antonelli: Right, that's another thing. But either we quit Imprudence, or we continue (in some direction)
[13:17] Armin Weatherwax: think just disable LL grids is ok, we have a wonderful viewer for opensimulators
[13:18] Antonius Misfit: I agree with Tho
[13:18] Ron Ghostaltar: I say continue as a generic virtual worlds viewer... I for example use Imprudence pretty much exclusively for OpenSIM and soon so will the students/professors here at Rutgers University on our OpenSIM grid
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. I think it's clear then that quitting entirely is not an option
[13:19] Antonius Misfit: which grid, Ron?
[13:19] Jacek Antonelli: So we continue in some way. Now to decide which way.
[13:19] Ron Ghostaltar: Antonius: we started operating our own private grid
[13:19] Antonius Misfit: ah okay
[13:19] Armin Weatherwax: might push our development in to new realms though - why adapt viewer2 features then - isn't naali also a good codebase, or idealist-viewer ... etc
[13:19] Ron Ghostaltar: we are having little talks here and there about starting a public EDU grid
[13:19] Opensource Obscure: back)) if one quits entirely now, without even waiting some time to see if LL changed their mind .. that makes me think that viewer project has other issues.
[13:20] Tho Millgrove: wb
[13:20] Opensource Obscure: i support your decision
[13:20] Ron Ghostaltar: naali is far from usable at current time... I've tried it
[13:21] Armin Weatherwax: so is viewer2
[13:21] Armin Weatherwax: i tried it
[13:21] Jacek Antonelli: Should we drop official support for SL (remove from grid list)? Or actively disable it (code the viewer to refuse to connect to SL)? Or just continue allowing users to connect to SL?
[13:21] Ron Ghostaltar: oh I agreed there's a lot of work there, but Naali isn't in a much better shape
[13:21] Opensource Obscure: I'd suggest to work together not only with other viewer teams .. but with users communities as well .. to ask LL yet another revision of the policy.
[13:22] Antonius Misfit: drop official support for SL would be the easiest option
[13:22] Opensource Obscure: would to create a opensim-only viewer acceptable for you?
[13:22] Ron Ghostaltar: I'm still in favor of my idea with the disclaimer that would install the config or not, but the easiest thing to do is just leave it off the grid manager and let the users add it themselves
[13:22] Armin Weatherwax: well, think first step is announcing and removing from grid list, and see the feedback. I assume we are not he last project disabeling SL
[13:23] Opensource Obscure: oh forget last thing i said.
[13:23] Ron Ghostaltar: OO: LL has pretty much stated that this version of the TPV policy is final
[13:24] Opensource Obscure: so you trust them ?
[13:24] Opensource Obscure: ; )
[13:24] Opensource Obscure: no ok i got that
[13:24] Tho Millgrove: I've a feeling the current administration of LL will not care if there are only one or two token TPV's
[13:24] Armin Weatherwax: If they really want to get rid of all third party viewers they won't change it. If that wasn't their plan they will change it.
[13:24] Tho Millgrove: yes, you're right, Armin
[13:25] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, food for thought: What do we accomplish by removing SL from the grid list, besides making it less convenient for our users to connect to SL?
[13:25] Antonius Misfit: that would be detrimental to SL in the long run, though
[13:25] Opensource Obscure: right. but I still think that was not their plan. with LL, Occam's Razor = "they messed with it"
[13:25] Ron Ghostaltar: knowing LL's rep for turning their backs on residents who helped them get to where they are now I'm not expecting them to change anything
[13:26] Opensource Obscure: that makes sense Jacek - if paired with a layman description of the whole situation.
[13:26] Opensource Obscure: eg: if you log in SL with Imprudence ... <etc>
[13:26] Tho Millgrove: Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
[13:26] Opensource Obscure: hahaha that is Tho
[13:26] Armin Weatherwax: for the worst case it was good if OS did provide an incomatible protocol, so we can change it so that the viewer for sure can't get into LL grids
[13:27] Antonius Misfit: Misfit's Razor: stupidity or malice, it is what it is(shrug)
[13:28] Antonius Misfit: Halllooooo
[13:28] Antonius Misfit: Twoja
[13:28] Jacek Antonelli: I think completely disabling connecting to SL would be a disservice to our users. It is up to them to decide whether to risk it, yes?
[13:28] Twoja Ryba: hi
[13:28] Tho Millgrove: that's a pure libertarian viewpoint, yes
[13:28] Opensource Obscure: yeah. but as a user, i expect that if you let me easily get into SL, i'm not doing anything really dangerous (in fact, my only risk is they forbid me to use this viewer)
[13:29] Ron Ghostaltar: well Jacek, by removing the grid settings and officially stating no support the responsibility falls on the end user if they do something not us... and if they ban the client its no skin off of our backs
[13:29] Opensource Obscure: does that make sense?
[13:29] Armin Weatherwax: atm thats the best, Jacek
[13:29] Twoja Ryba: I'd like to butt in here with some quotes from Joe, "No, it only governs viewers that actually do connect to the SL grid, not those that are capable of doing so (but don't.)"
[13:29] Twoja Ryba: "As I've stated repeatedly, the TPV policy governs viewers that connect to the SL grid. The policy document as worded is explicit about the requirements for developers and for users of TPVs that connect to the SL grid."
[13:29] Jacek Antonelli: We've already decided that we're not going to agree to the policy, Twoja
[13:30] Twoja Ryba: It seems like Joe is trying really hard to imply, without saying outright, that the policy applies upon connection to the grid, and is a per user policy
[13:30] Opensource Obscure: is Imprudence "capable of" connecting to the SL grid if you only remove the grid settings?
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: OO: Yes. Unless we take some extra step to make Imprudence refuse to connect to SL, it's capable of it
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: The user could add it back to the grid list
[13:31] Ron Ghostaltar: honestly I don't see the point of blocking the LL grids in the code
[13:31] Armin Weatherwax: but thats the users decision then.
[13:32] Twoja Ryba: it seems like the viewer can do anything and the TPV policy still won't apply until a user actually connects to the grid
[13:32] Ron Ghostaltar: if the client gets banned it can't access the grid anyway... might as well give users the chance to use the viewer to at least back up their content before that ever happens
[13:32] Jacek Antonelli: Right. I don't think that actively blocking SL is a worthwhile option
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: Removing it from the grid list makes it less convenient for users, but shifts some "blame" away from us.
[13:33] Armin Weatherwax: we can still do that if it becomes really necessary
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: Since we can say that we did not intend for users to connect to SL with it.
[13:33] Ron Ghostaltar: that and if we officially announce we're not going to support the LL grid
[13:34] Armin Weatherwax: the grid list is downloaded automatically?
[13:35] Jacek Antonelli: Yes. I'm not sure if updating it now would remove SL from existing users's lists, but it would stop it from appearing on new user's lists
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm... I think.
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: We may have to remove it from the default grid list as well.
[13:36] Twoja Ryba: man my SL client suuucks
[13:36] Twoja Ryba: :)
[13:36] Armin Weatherwax: Maybe we need an option for using a static one or another uri to get it
[13:37] Antonius Misfit: which client are you using, Twoja?
[13:37] Twoja Ryba: Meerkat atm
[13:37] Armin Weatherwax: tsss
[13:37] Ron Ghostaltar: Meerkat has pretty much been dropped in favor of Imprudence
[13:37] Twoja Ryba: I know, I used to make it.
[13:38] Armin Weatherwax: its a pitty that it is discontinued
[13:38] Antonius Misfit: you were a Meerkat dev?
[13:38] Jacek Antonelli: What about leaving SL on the grid list, but adding a warning the first time the user tries to connect to it?
[13:38] Twoja Ryba: yes
[13:38] Jacek Antonelli: Pros and cons of that?
[13:39] Twoja Ryba: The emerald Devs are opting to keep all of their features and are doing exactly what Jacek just said for features that may be used to break the rules of the TPV policy
[13:39] Ron Ghostaltar: that would still open up the door to libility since it would seem as if we're actively support the LL grid
[13:39] Twoja Ryba: It is an end user policy after all
[13:40] Armin Weatherwax: con: saying we don't support it and having it on the list is not congruent. if LL really wants to play the lawyer game they will use that
[13:40] Ron Ghostaltar: yup
[13:40] Armin Weatherwax: (not that I think they will9
[13:42] Twoja Ryba: The truth is, the TPV policy was created by lawyers for the purpose of giving LL legal recourse, it shouldn't be read literally just like the SL terms of service or any software EULA for that matter
[13:42] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. And it would be the same problem if we removed it from the grid list, but posted instructions on the wiki to re-add it?
[13:43] Armin Weatherwax: indeed. Not sure if we warn about Don't do the following:...
[13:43] Twoja Ryba: quoting Linden again... "* Legalese is a specialized language. It's not strictly English, and it's not always amenable to "common sense" interpretation. Think of lawyers as people who write code in an underspecified language for a buggy compiler, and you begin to understand why legalese is the way it is. There's a lot of law that isn't stated, but is actually implied by the context of the existing settled law. What that means is that if you're not a lawyer, you probably shouldn't be attempting to interpret legal documents -- especially not for other people....[cut]"
[13:44] Jacek Antonelli: Heh. I love how we are supposed to agree and obey something that we can't understand
[13:44] Tho Millgrove: yeah
[13:44] Armin Weatherwax: a friend of mine is lawyer and PhD of philosophical logic... he teached me that if needed lawyers can speak understandable
[13:44] Twoja Ryba: you agree to it upon logging into SL or signing up to be on the TPV registry, not by developing a client that contains the SL URI and the ability to login to SL
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli: Twoja: But LL can ban developers from SL if they violate the TPV policy
[13:46] Twoja Ryba: I can't say I've deduced that from any part of the policy...
[13:46] Jacek Antonelli: We covered that earlier. 8e "We may enforce this Policy in our sole discretion, including but not limited to by removing a Third-Party Viewer from the Viewer Directory and suspending or terminating the Second Life accounts of Developers or users of a Third-Party Viewer."
[13:46] Armin Weatherwax: they will ban Neil and such
[13:46] Antonius Misfit: Look up Section 8c
[13:46] Twoja Ryba: ah
[13:46] Ron Ghostaltar: LL can and will ban anyone for any reason
[13:47] Armin Weatherwax: true
[13:47] Jacek Antonelli: Realistically, if LL banned us with no good reason, there would be some backlash against them (I would hope).
[13:47] Jacek Antonelli: And I think it's extremely unlikely that they would ban us unless we did something to provoke them.
[13:47] Armin Weatherwax: don't think they will ban Jacek or Robin or Carlo or (etc)
[13:48] Twoja Ryba: I think Linden are being vague and implying a lot of things here on purpose... they want people to assume that doing *anything* that doesn't comply with their policy is bannable, and for good reason, it's the power most residents wish LL had over TPVs.
[13:48] Ron Ghostaltar: if they banned us there may be a little back lash.. if they banned Emerald there would be a huge backlash
[13:48] Antonius Misfit: Ron: agreed, Emerald has gotten really huge
[13:48] Tho Millgrove: yes, it has
[13:48] Armin Weatherwax: its just a demonstration of power, as the viewer2 merge to SG was
[13:49] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe we would at least get on Slashdot. *grins and rolls her eyes*
[13:49] Tho Millgrove: haha
[13:49] Twoja Ryba: from observing both Imprudence and Emerald devs, I don't think Imprudence devs need to worry about stepping on any toes that Emerald isn't already jumping on.
[13:49] Armin Weatherwax: (nobody really powerful really needs to demonstrate their power, in my opinion)
[13:49] Tho Millgrove: on Slashdot, 60% of the comments would be talking about how lame virtual worlds are
[13:49] Ron Ghostaltar: yeah I think if they were to ban a TPV, Emerald is at the top of their hit list
[13:49] Twoja Ryba: I've read that Emerald accounts for half of the daily logins
[13:50] Opensource Obscure: slashwhat?
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: So here's a question: Do we care about the TPV? We already decided we don't agree to it. What would happen if we just ignore it?
[13:50] Ron Ghostaltar: content backup, encrypted PM's, holds more popularity then their own viewer, etc etc
[13:50] Antonius Misfit: ignoring it would be a bad idea
[13:51] Ron Ghostaltar: honestly I haven't seen any TPV's agree to it yet
[13:51] Opensource Obscure: whoa, i'd pay for some reliable statistics about viewers usage.
[13:51] Jacek Antonelli: I mean ignoring it, but using common sense not to provoke LL.
[13:51] Twoja Ryba: With Emerald viewer Linden have showed a lot of diplomacy by calling out the developers and speaking to them privately before making any rash decisions, I think we can expect the same treatment by challenging less of the TPV policy than emerald already is.
[13:51] Armin Weatherwax: in my opinion it isn't worth the paper .... er harddrive space ... it is writton on for german law
[13:52] Ron Ghostaltar: OO: I wouldn't take LL's statistics with more then a grain of salt... after all the reason chat history is so bad in 2.0 is because they actually believe that 99% of the user base is using voice
[13:52] Jacek Antonelli: Rather than spitting in LL's face and doing things opposite of the TPV policy
[13:52] Armin Weatherwax: nothing i signed
[13:52] Armin Weatherwax: not presented in german
[13:52] Opensource Obscure: o.O
[13:52] Armin Weatherwax: violates customer rights
[13:53] Armin Weatherwax: i'd say (as the tos) I can just ignore it
[13:53] Twoja Ryba: Lindens number one priority is profits, which are fueled by residents, who have proven time and time again that they can cause large changes in SL by ganging up and complaining en masse. I think we need to comply with residents more than anything.
[13:53] Tho Millgrove: but they are not required to provide you service I think, Armin
[13:53] Tho Millgrove: unless you are paying them for it
[13:54] Twoja Ryba: A viewer that allows the import and export of objects is doing something you can already do with LSL, no resident will challenge that.
[13:54] Antonius Misfit: common sense is always good, but saying we're going to ignore the policy outright sends the wrong message
[13:54] Opensource Obscure: /logs off
[13:54] Opensource Obscure: ..
[13:54] Opensource Obscure logs off.
[13:54] Ron Ghostaltar: later OO
[13:54] Opensource Obscure: ciao ciao ! see you later
[13:54] Armin Weatherwax: I did - I bought Linden$ and using them I bought content
[13:55] Tho Millgrove: bye OO
[13:55] Tho Millgrove: hmm, maybe
[13:55] Armin Weatherwax: so if they banned me the only reason i would not sue them is that a german court doesnt start to work for something woth U$20
[13:55] Antonius Misfit: Twoja: yeah, that's correct. I remember seeing a Youtube video demonstrating LSL-based content ackup
[13:55] Antonius Misfit: *backup
[13:55] Tho Millgrove: I think somebody with a premium account would have more leverage
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Let's move on to another subject for a while, then we can talk about what to do about SL support
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Subject: These weekly meetings. Because we reject the TPV policy, we aren't allowed to log in to SL with a third party viewer anymore. Yet we have our meeting each week in SL.
[13:57] Antonius Misfit: hmm, pick out a place in an OpenSim grid then?
[13:57] Armin Weatherwax: OSgrid is also a nice place
[13:57] Twoja Ryba: I hate logging in for a text chat, it would be nice to have them in IRC or an opensim hooked up to an IRC relay
[13:57] Armin Weatherwax: 3rd rock also, i read
[13:57] Tho Millgrove: you are most welcome to meet in 3rd Rock
[13:58] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, I was thinking OSG or 3RG
[13:58] Antonius Misfit: Tho: I'll be looking up 3rd Rock soon
[13:58] Tho Millgrove: good Anto
[13:59] Twoja Ryba: on a related note, connecting to any opensim exposes all of your clients abilities to that sim, including functions like requestxfer which allows the admins of that sim to pull files out of your SL cache
[13:59] Ron Ghostaltar: if you have a spare computer you could always create your own sim and link up to OSG or 3RG if you wanted to
[13:59] Armin Weatherwax: ah - the 3rd rock tos page is fixed :)
[14:00] Tho Millgrove: what was the concern, Armin?
[14:00] Twoja Ryba: OSGrid is the largest opensim grid
[14:00] Antonius Misfit: I could try throwing an OpenSim install on my VPS again
[14:00] Tho Millgrove: yes, OSGrid is probably bigger than all the other opensim grids combined
[14:00] Antonius Misfit: and hooking it up to OSGrid
[14:01] Antonius Misfit: beb, afk
[14:01] Antonius Misfit: back
[14:01] Twoja Ryba: I'm sure the osgrid folks would be more than happy to provide some free meeting space
[14:02] Tho Millgrove: I'm sure they would; and I know the 3rg folks would ;-)
[14:02] Twoja Ryba: however I still suggest meeting here, and implying compliance with the TPV policy
[14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Any significant downside to meeting somewhere besides SL? Thinking in terms of convenience for logging in
[14:02] Twoja Ryba: I do think that Linden would contact the devs before doing anything rash
[14:02] Armin Weatherwax: is the time ok for a majority?
[14:03] Ron Ghostaltar: as long as I'm not swamped with work the usual time is good for me
[14:04] Tho Millgrove: I will note that opensim is still alpha; the level of availability is generally good, but not at the same level as SL yet
[14:04] Armin Weatherwax: hehe that helps on the other hand to find hidden bugs in the client
[14:05] Tho Millgrove: and this time is in the middle of my work afternoon, so things sometimes come up; but usually, it works for me
[14:05] Tho Millgrove: yes, Armin, true ㋡
[14:06] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, I think we'll try out some other grids in the future, before settling on a new home
[14:06] Armin Weatherwax: yay :)
[14:07] Antonius Misfit: Twoja: we'l still most likely have some presence in SL, so the Lindens will still be accessible to us
[14:07] Tho Millgrove: I'm sure we could even set up some mushrooms in 3rg to make everybody at home :-P
[14:07] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe. I made these mushrooms, I can export them :D
[14:07] Tho Millgrove: yes, as long as you're listed as the creator, it's good ...
[14:07] Jacek Antonelli giggles
[14:08] Jacek Antonelli: Although... the viewer can't easily verify that the textures are created by me, even though they are. So perhaps I'm not allowed to export them even though I created them.
[14:08] Tho Millgrove: I did wonder about that particular aspect of it
[14:08] Antonius Misfit gave you Mushroom.
[14:09] Tho Millgrove: maybe textures have to have the creator's name embedded steganographically?
[14:09] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[14:09] Jacek Antonelli: Or maybe we just give LL the finger and do it a way that makes sense. :)
[14:10] Jacek Antonelli: Speaking of giving LL the finger: What shall we announce to the world?
[14:10] Armin Weatherwax: yes. at least at sldev
[14:10] Jacek Antonelli: We've decided that we don't agree to the policy. Should we announce that?
[14:11] Tho Millgrove: or that we don't agree with the policy in it's current draft?
[14:11] Antonius Misfit: just announce it in a respectable and professional manner, of course
[14:12] Ron Ghostaltar: "Effective immediately the Imprudence Viewer will no long officially support the Linden Grid and will be removing the login credentials from the grid manager until a TPV Policy has been released that does not conflict with the GPL."
[14:12] Jacek Antonelli: I'll be doing a blog post, probably. I'm not sure about announcing on sldev. I don't think that's appropriate
[14:13] Jacek Antonelli: Something like that, Ron
[14:13] Antonius Misfit: Ron: and it should also be added that coming to that decision wasn't easy
[14:13] Jacek Antonelli: Explain our objections, our decision, and what will happen
[14:13] Ron Ghostaltar: yes of course, mine was pretty much the abridged version :P
[14:14] Tho Millgrove: I'm certain whatever you post will be picked up and carried in the blogosphere
[14:14] Armin Weatherwax: and be sorry about that step, but atm the only way we see to be safe
[14:15] Ron Ghostaltar: yup, especially since Imprudence would be the first viewer to step up to the plate publicly with this kind of decision
[14:15] Tho Millgrove: and a certain conspiracy theorist may see it as proof that TPV's are all about ripping people off
[14:15] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[14:15] Tho Millgrove: of course, she'd see accepting the terms as proof of it, too
[14:16] Jacek Antonelli: So, it seems the consensus is to remove SL from the grid list, but not actively block it? Shift the liability to the user?
[14:16] Ron Ghostaltar: Tho: you'll also have the other side of the coin praising LL for a policy that discourages viewers that offer copybot functions ;P
[14:16] Antonius Misfit: yup
[14:16] Armin Weatherwax: Jacek: yes.
[14:16] Jacek Antonelli: Okay
[14:16] Tho Millgrove: I would suggest emphasising that Imprudence has always made a special effort to adhere to all licenses
[14:16] Jacek Antonelli: Indeed
[14:16] Ron Ghostaltar: yes
[14:16] Tho Millgrove: and that LL's terms make that impossible to do
[14:16] Armin Weatherwax: good point, Tho
[14:16] Jacek Antonelli: At great cost to our own mental health and happiness, too. T_T
[14:17] Tho Millgrove: yes, but at least it improved your ethical health ^^
[14:17] Jacek Antonelli plays a sad song on a tiny violin for herself
[14:17] Tho Millgrove: haha
[14:17] Jacek Antonelli: hehe, true
[14:17] Tho Millgrove: brb
[14:18] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. Allow me to summarize our conclusions today:
[14:18] Armin Weatherwax: (violine for jacek http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Lw2CCho2I4)
[14:18] Jacek Antonelli: 1. We cannot in good faith agree to the TPV policy as it exists today, for reasons X, Y, and Z.
[14:19] Jacek Antonelli: 2. Therefore, we no longer support connecting to SL with Imprudence. It will be removed from the default grid list, and any users who connects to SL does so at their own risk.
[14:20] Jacek Antonelli: 3. We will be relocating our meeting spot to another grid which allows us to connect with our own viewer.
[14:20] Jacek Antonelli: Anything I missed?
[14:20] Antonius Misfit: seems pretty much it, I think
[14:21] Ron Ghostaltar: don't forget to make an announcement of the conclusions of this meeting
[14:22] Jacek Antonelli: Right, I'll be announcing it on the blog and our own mailing list. Probably not SLdev. Someone else will doubtless mention it there anyway.
[14:22] Jacek Antonelli: (I'll also announce in our forums of course)
[14:22] Jacek Antonelli stretches.
[14:23] Jacek Antonelli: I think that's it for today. Anything else we need to talk about this week?
[14:23] Antonius Misfit: Chances are Tateru may pick it up on Massively, too
[14:23] Tho Millgrove: let's hope this isn't LL's intent, and the action leads them to rethink
[14:23] Tho Millgrove: yes, I fully expect Tateru will, as well as several others
[14:24] Antonius Misfit: Tho: good point, that should be included in th announcement too
[14:25] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, I'll make a point that we hope LL will rethink their policy
[14:25] Ron Ghostaltar: also an unrelated side note.. the Cool Viewer devs are back porting 2.0 features so if we're not interested in making a 2.0 branch Imprudence it might be worth hooking up with them
[14:25] Armin Weatherwax: indeed, we assume best intentions - but we can't count on them as it is formulated
[14:26] Ron Ghostaltar: alright I'm gonna call it quits if the meeting is over, need to head home from the office
[14:26] Jacek Antonelli: Oh, also that we will be doing the things that make sense, like the privacy policy.
[14:26] Tho Millgrove: yes, that's good Jacek
[14:27] Antonius Misfit: that shows we're not rejecting the *entire* policy
[14:27] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, I think let's adjourn. This might be our last meeting in this location, so goodbye to our little sandy beach with mushrooms
[14:27] Tho Millgrove sighs
[14:27] Armin Weatherwax waves to that nice beach
[14:28] Antonius Misfit: Nuuuuuuu!
[14:28] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks for coming, everyone. Take care :)
[14:28] Tho Millgrove: you too, Jacek
[14:28] Tho Millgrove: bye all
[14:28] Jacek Antonelli: See you next week, wherever it is
[14:28] Tho Millgrove: ㋡
[14:28] Armin Weatherwax: take care :)
Retrieved from "http://wiki.kokuaviewer.org/wiki/ImpDev_Meetups/2010-03-23"
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