ImpDev Meetups/2010-04-07

From Kokua Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search


ImpDev Meetup for April 07, 2010.

We met on 3rd Rock Grid as the first visit of our OpenSim tour. Next week's meeting will be on Reaction Grid, followed by ScienceSim.

We discussed plans for Imprudence now that we're focusing on OpenSim. We talked about fixing issues to make the viewer work more smoothly with OpenSim. We also discussed various technologies like Mumble voice chat, HyperGrid, SimianGrid and third party asset stores, OpenID/OAuth logins, and more.


(Times are in PDT.)

[11:56] Penny Rayne: Woohoo! Hiya WhiteStar!
[11:56] WhiteStar Magic: Hey tehre folks
[11:57] Armin Weatherwax: hi :)
[11:57] Penny Rayne: Hiya Armin!
[11:57] Penny Rayne: Hiya Jacek!
[11:58] Jacek Antonelli: Whee!
[11:58] Penny Rayne: Hahaha ... Jacek is going to be shocked :P
[11:58] WhiteStar Magic: Hey Jacek
[11:58] Thoria Millgrove: hi Jacek!
[11:58] Penny Rayne: Like the crowd, Jacek? :P
[11:58] Jacek Antonelli: Oh my!
[11:58] Jacek Antonelli: We need moar chairs! :D
[11:58] WhiteStar Magic: LOL
[11:58] Penny Rayne: <grin>
[11:58] Mojito Sorbet: I have to leave in a minute
[11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: I need better exporting tools for my avatar pieces.
[11:59] WhiteStar Magic: at the rate meetings are growing here, we will be needing a stadium of sorts soon
[11:59] Penny Rayne: Good luck with doggie, Mojito :-(
[11:59] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[11:59] Thoria Millgrove: we have a couple of amphitheatres, too
[11:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: As you can see, I've not been having much success X)
[11:59] Penny Rayne: You're very virtual, Seb :P
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[12:00] Thoria Millgrove: hi Ron
[12:00] Penny Rayne: Hi Ron
[12:00] Jacek Antonelli: If we get too many more people here, we'll just have to fight to the death until there are enough chairs
[12:00] Ron Overdrive: sup
[12:00] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[12:00] Penny Rayne: lol
[12:00] Mojito Sorbet: Breaking the chairs in the ensuing brawl
[12:00] Penny Rayne: Eddi!!
[12:00] Thoria Millgrove: I can keep pulling chairs out if necessary ...
[12:00] WhiteStar Magic: pizza done, brb
[12:01] Eddi Decosta: hello :)
[12:02] Jacek Antonelli: Hello, everyone :)
[12:02] Penny Rayne: Hi Jacek :-) Imprudence has a group here, yes?
[12:02] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure. I haven't made one yet
[12:03] Thoria Millgrove: nor have I
[12:03] Thoria Millgrove: I think you should go ahead and create one, Jacek
[12:03] Jacek Antonelli: Cool, I'll do that while we wait for McCabe to log in
[12:03] Thoria Millgrove: kk
[12:04] Thoria Millgrove: we can get it added to the board at the arrival area, too
[12:04] Penny Rayne waves at Ron and Thoria :P
[12:05] Ron Overdrive: heya Penny
[12:05] Ron Overdrive: ya know I think we are getting bigger turn outs on opensim then we get on SL to these meetings :P
[12:05] Penny Rayne: Disappointed I didn't manage to get Sai here, buh
[12:05] Eddi Decosta: just a little subject , do you know why i can launch the imprudance viewer on windows 7 ?
[12:05] Thoria Millgrove: ty Penny
[12:05] Penny Rayne: I should have told him we would discuss adding Smalltalk to Imprudence ^_^
[12:05] Jacek Antonelli: lol
[12:06] Thoria Millgrove: I'm running it on Win 7 right now, Eddi
[12:06] Ron Overdrive: can or can't launch? I'm using 1.3 Beta 2 on Win7 64bit no problem
[12:06] Eddi Decosta: okey cause i have downloaded the last, and i have a memory error on startup ..
[12:06] Thoria Millgrove: ditto Ron
[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: Thanks
[12:07] WhiteStar Magic: ...
[12:07] Eddi Decosta: now im on snowglobe 1.4
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: Ahoy McCabe!
[12:07] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy!
[12:07] Penny Rayne: McCabe!!!
[12:08] Thoria Millgrove: hi McCabe
[12:08] McCabe Maxsted waves :)
[12:08] Penny Rayne: Ahoy MC :-)))
[12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Eddi - I'm on Windows 7 64-bit
[12:08] WhiteStar Magic: My Some of us get around
[12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: Using Impru
[12:08] Eddi Decosta: me too
[12:08] Eddi Decosta: OS Version: Professional (Build 7600)

??? Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation ??? Graphics Card: GeForce 9800 GTX/9800 GTX+/PCI/SSE2

[12:08] Sebastean Steamweaver: I haven't had any memory errors.
[12:09] WhiteStar Magic: I can get Imp Beta 2 running but it doesn;t last too long on Win7-64
[12:09] Ron Overdrive: OS Version: Professional (Build 7600)

??? Graphics Card Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation ??? Graphics Card: GeForce 9800 GT/PCI/SSE2

[12:09] Ron Overdrive: I also have 2 of those cards installed
[12:09] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe we should start a fund to buy a 64-bit computer for McCabe with Win7 64
[12:09] Eddi Decosta: i hate the beta two for now i have some warning of unsupported graphic card, if i need to change mine agains i send the bills to LL ..
[12:09] McCabe Maxsted thinks that's a great idea :D
[12:10] Penny Rayne: McCabe, I think I triggered the texture bug you mentioned in OSgrid yesterday, at the Freebies sim. As soon as arrived, BANG. Relogged repeatedly, always the same. Then went back to 1.2 and it was fine.
[12:10] Penny Rayne: 100% repro I think
[12:10] Armin Weatherwax: texture bug ?
[12:11] Armin Weatherwax: anything with flickering?
[12:11] Penny Rayne: No
[12:11] McCabe Maxsted: oooh, do you have an slurl? I've been trying to find a 100% repro to test with
[12:11] Sebastean Steamweaver needs a second monitor.
[12:11] Penny Rayne: I'll get it to you when next in OSgrid, Mc
[12:11] McCabe Maxsted: kk, thanks
[12:11] Thoria Millgrove: once you have two monitors, it's hard to ever go back to one
[12:12] McCabe Maxsted: armin: some stuff with openjpeg. Maybe the one you fixed up on your b2-fixes branch...
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, I've noticed some flickering on various opensim grids as well. I think we may need to dig into OpenJPEG and how the viewer uses it
[12:13] WhiteStar Magic: i sthat the one you passed me the other noight to test with teh ram consumption issue ?
[12:13] Ron Overdrive: hey Jacek, we're using the latest trunk of openjpeg right?
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: I think we're still using openjpeg 1.2, but there are 1.3 and 2.0 branches in development
[12:14] McCabe Maxsted nods at WS, that was the latest trunk version. The one packaged with windows is 1.3
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli looks. Oh, yes, I'm on 1.3 now
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: I guess we're on 1.3 :D
[12:15] WhiteStar Magic: at least that one capped at 500MB and never went higher, unlike teh one packaged into Beta 2
[12:15] Ron Overdrive: ok, but is it the latest 1.3 or the one LL supplied originally? there were a bunch of bug fixes since then
[12:15] McCabe Maxsted: there are some crash fixes that Robin got applied
[12:15] Jacek Antonelli: There may be some fixes in their repository that we could use, though
[12:15] Armin Weatherwax: J2C Decoder Version: OpenJPEG: 1.3.0, Runtime: 1.3.0
[12:15] McCabe Maxsted: but looks like there are other issues with the latest version
[12:16] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe, mind filing a new ticket to remind us to have a look at the latest openjpeg?
[12:16] Latha Serevi: I just created a group here on 3rg called AW Groupies; anybody who wants to wear the tag, join or ask me for invite.
[12:16] Armin Weatherwax: and openal, for linux :)
[12:16] McCabe Maxsted: it's already there :)
[12:16] Jacek Antonelli: Aha. Psychic!
[12:16] McCabe Maxsted: sure, invite me Latha
[12:17] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. Let's talk a bit about our plans for Imprudence
[12:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: Latha, Could you invite me also?
[12:17] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm sure Penny here would like an invite also.
[12:18] Ron Overdrive: <-- last source change was March 26
[12:18] Jacek Antonelli: As you can guess, we're shifting our focus to OpenSim now.
[12:18] Jacek Antonelli: We're having a tour of opensim grids over the next month, starting today here on 3RG :)
[12:18] McCabe Maxsted: :)
[12:18] Thoria Millgrove: and you're all very welcome here in 3RG :-)
[12:19] Jacek Antonelli: Next week we'll be visiting ReactionGrid, and the week after that is ScienceSim.
[12:19] Jacek Antonelli: I'm also making arrangements with InWorldz. And of course we'll be visiting OSGrid
[12:20] Armin Weatherwax: which of those are reachable via HG?
[12:20] Jacek Antonelli: Besides just being a lot of fun, the tour should give us a good appreciation of the variety of grids that are out there, and also help get us in a multi-grid mindset :D
[12:20] Armin Weatherwax starts to lose track about all the new accounts
[12:21] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure about HyperGrid
[12:21] Thoria Millgrove: heh, I do understand that
[12:21] WhiteStar Magic: SciSim no HG, OSG some but not much HG
[12:22] Jacek Antonelli: I think for the moment, we may have to live with having many accounts. But we can work with the grid operators to get good HyperGrid support in Imprudence, and encourage the operators to use it where appropriate
[12:23] Sebastean Steamweaver: Just a random question - it may not be related and I apologize, Im a little disoriented, hehe. Are there any plans to provide support in imprudence for downloading from 3rd party hosted asset servers for virtual worlds?
[12:23] Jacek Antonelli: Can you explain what you mean by that, Sebastean?
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Let's say you have an account on grids X and Y, but both grids use a 3rd party hosting service for their assets.
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: So instead of connecting to X or Y grid to download a user's inventory/appearance, you connect to the hosting service to get it.
[12:24] Jacek Antonelli: Ah. Are there hosting services like that already?
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: Penny mentioned one the other day actually.
[12:24] Sebastean Steamweaver: I don't have the link handy.
[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: I think Penny might be afk.
[12:25] Sebastean Steamweaver: I had brought up the subject in AWG on SL, and she replied with a link to such a place.
[12:25] Armin Weatherwax: hm is that done by the OGP additions in SG1.3?
[12:25] Jacek Antonelli: Okay. Since this is the first I've heard about such things existing, you can surmise that we don't have any existing plans for that. But we're certainly open to the possibility. :)
[12:26] Penny Rayne: Reading back
[12:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: It would definitely help provide "seamlessness" across virtual worlds. I'm sure most of us can identify with the pains of recreating ourselves for every grid we make, as my current mess attests :)
[12:26] WhiteStar Magic: SimianGrid service will eventually support such, their f9irst priority is completion and stability, leading with VWRAP and then HG capabilities
[12:26] Sebastean Steamweaver: But it would also help in a plethora of other areas, as well.
[12:27] McCabe Maxsted nods in agreement
[12:27] Sebastean Steamweaver: SimianGrid was the one, yes.
[12:27] Penny Rayne: Well the first people to do that were RealXtend, using WebDAV inventories in Cable Beach. But now Hurli has formalized that concept and merged it with VWRAP --- see SimianGrid
[12:27] Penny Rayne: Yep
[12:27] Jacek Antonelli: Jon Hurliman is involved with SimianGrid, right?
[12:27] Penny Rayne: Yep
[12:27] Jacek Antonelli: Cool
[12:27] WhiteStar Magic: lot of work going on in there right now
[12:27] Penny Rayne: Hurli cancelled his SL account a few days ago, over the TPV
[12:27] WhiteStar Magic: IRC Channel #vwrap
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli: On freenode, WhiteStar?
[12:28] WhiteStar Magic: yes
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli: Mkay. My IRC channel list is growing in leaps and bounds ever since we shifted focus to opensim, hehe
[12:28] Armin Weatherwax cancelled his SL account too ... if anyone wonders
[12:28] McCabe Maxsted grins
[12:29] Penny Rayne: I'm SL because of VWRAP, but frankly it feels like an alien place now.
[12:29] Penny Rayne: (But don't wanna talk about SL)
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: Aye
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, so -- plans
[12:30] WhiteStar Magic: They are no longer a concern IMO
[12:30] Jacek Antonelli: We've got our opensim tour, and then next month we'll settle down in a more permanent location for our meetings
[12:32] Penny Rayne: The "tour" means you occasionally hop around thegrids?
[12:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: So far this has been the most stable/usable grid I've visited.
[12:32] Jacek Antonelli: At the moment, the tour is visiting a different grid each week in April and the beginning of May
[12:33] Penny Rayne: OSgrid is not good for meetings, because they're always bleeding edge, and continually rebooting.
[12:33] Jacek Antonelli: Although we can probably hop around a bit even after then. :)
[12:33] Latha Serevi: The tour is a great exercise, and an intteresting one.
[12:33] Jacek Antonelli: In terms of viewer development, I'd like to finish up version 1.3, more or less as we've planned it. We can change a few things around, but let's finish that version off, then "steer the boat" in our new direction.
[12:34] Penny Rayne: I think it's important to show willingness to suffer a bit of pain for the interop cause, even though registering accounts everywhere is barely "interop". Need to eat our own dogfood though.
[12:35] McCabe Maxsted has already learned a lot, just from tping around 3rd rock and osgrid. Definitely liking the tour thus far
[12:35] Jacek Antonelli: One of the focuses for 1.4 will be to iron out some of the wrinkles with connecting to OpenSim. Fix what we can, and report to the OpenSim folks the things that need to be addressed on the server side.
[12:35] Penny Rayne nods
[12:36] Penny Rayne: Jacek: what's the right place to report small issues, like "You have been logged out of Secondlife" when in other grids?
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, good question
[12:36] McCabe Maxsted: do we have an opensim-specific forum thread?
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Ah, not yet. I forgot to make that last week
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli adds it to her list
[12:36] WhiteStar Magic: lol, another sticky note on side of monitor
[12:37] Jacek Antonelli: heh, yeah
[12:37] WhiteStar Magic: will there be a Beta 3 ?
[12:37] Armin Weatherwax: what is the plan with the issue tracker - still rather internal or open it for users (maybe those who can help to track a bug)?
[12:38] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, there will be at least one more beta, then at least one release candidate, then the final release
[12:38] Latha Serevi: As a new Impru user, when I crash at random, is there a recommended procedure other than my current "shrug and relog" ? Thx.
[12:38] Jacek Antonelli: Armin, I've been wondering that myself
[12:39] McCabe Maxsted thinks users who know what an issue tracker all about is should feel okay with filing stuff there :)
[12:39] Armin Weatherwax: Latha: full logs are very helpful
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Latha: If you could post in the forums and/or send us your Imprudence.log file, that would be great. More info here:
[12:40] McCabe Maxsted: latha: if you clear your cache manually, that also helps if you login to mulitple grids
[12:40] Thoria Millgrove: yes, I've found clearing cache to be a big help when switching grids
[12:40] WhiteStar Magic: some of us travel often to digff grids, it get's complicated to start doing taht
[12:40] Armin Weatherwax: I think a great contribution was if someone could write a "howto make the perfect bug report" :)
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, what is it about clearing the cache that helps when using multiple grids? It would be good if we could fix it so that's not necessary.
[12:42] Latha Serevi: Thanks for the tips. I'll have a peek in my current Imprudence.old logfile now.
[12:42] McCabe Maxsted: with regards to beta3, I think we should look into porting things from other viewers, particularly the hippo viewer, since opensim is such a different environment than sl and our userbase for testing the RC has changed
[12:43] WhiteStar Magic: +1 McCabe
[12:43] WhiteStar Magic: especially linking > 255 prims
[12:43] WhiteStar Magic: well, one of
[12:43] Armin Weatherwax: McCabe: we already have a lot in the hippo grid manager - just need to use it
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: Hmmmm.
[12:44] WhiteStar Magic: and a twig / reminder from previous chats, the increase to Script & Notecard editor to support more than 32k of test
[12:45] WhiteStar Magic: *text
[12:45] Armin Weatherwax: linking > 255 prims - is there any limits specific to different simulators or do all support unlimited linking?
[12:45] WhiteStar Magic: OpenSim does it fine
[12:45] WhiteStar Magic: Hippo can link unlimited
[12:45] Armin Weatherwax: (because that is a 3 line patch or so)
[12:46] Jacek Antonelli: Each sim can configure it differently. Eventually I'd like the viewer to be able to query the sim to find the correct number, but in the meantime we should probably just remove the limit entirely, like Hippo does
[12:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: Has there been work towards heirarchical linking?
[12:46] McCabe Maxsted was thinking more of opensim stability issues to start with. Tping around and talking to people about viewers, it seems like hippo has a reputation for being stable and we have a reputation for odd rendering
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: Porting stability and bug fixes sounds like a very good idea
[12:47] Thoria Millgrove: and Emerald has a reputation for not rendering
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[12:47] WhiteStar Magic: Hippo 5 pulls KDU as does Hippo 6
[12:47] McCabe Maxsted: which is true, I discovered, hehe
[12:48] Ron Overdrive: that reminds me, has there been any work on HPA and standard XML backup?
[12:49] Penny Rayne: The grid manager doesn'r work with the commandline. When you specify a -grid XXX on the commandline, it's meant to override the last used grid manager entry, but it's ignored currently. That's how you launch to different grids automatically.
[12:49] WhiteStar Magic: voice is soemting taht is coming up often with people, as is video's and media
[12:50] Armin Weatherwax: Penny: currentl logged in using the fix to that. Issue remains that it doesnt show up in the combo box
[12:50] Jacek Antonelli: Ron: The current status for HPA is: mostly done, but I'm not going to merge it into the mainline until the viewer can still load the old XML format as well
[12:51] Penny Rayne: Armin: ah great, thanks, it's progress!
[12:51] WhiteStar Magic: I discovered a little somthing this AM which may be of interest
[12:52] Penny Rayne: I like how 3rd Rock separates the account name from the avatar name cleanly.
[12:52] WhiteStar Magic: maybe for OpenSim pure version
[12:52] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy kakurady :)
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: Hiya Kakurady
[12:52] Kakurady Drakenar: Oi-i.
[12:52] Penny Rayne: Hi Kakurady
[12:52] Armin Weatherwax: hi kakurady :)
[12:53] Kakurady Drakenar: Looks like my head's missing - nevermind, there it is.
[12:53] Kakurady Drakenar: Had to export avatar so took a little while.
[12:53] Thoria Millgrove: :-)
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: WhiteStar: What did you discover?
[12:54] Notecard saved
[12:54] WhiteStar Magic: passing a notecard
[12:54] Penny Rayne: Kakurady: several of us were wondering about the best way to to the export/imports, it seems to be much needed but is currently a pain.
[12:54] WhiteStar Magic: regarding Mumble Vpoice support in OpenSim
[12:55] WhiteStar Magic: I had a small brief chat with Antont of Naali and Naali is supporting mumble
[12:55] Armin Weatherwax: are there plans for Mumble Vpoice support in OpenSim?
[12:55] WhiteStar Magic: and as a result, they are going to work on setting it up for OpenSim
[12:56] WhiteStar Magic: and from what I gather, it could be possible adapted to be used by LL Based Viewers as well
[12:56] McCabe Maxsted: nice
[12:56] WhiteStar Magic: Mumble is far superior than Freeswitch and well, Vivox is not an option due to co$t
[12:57] Armin Weatherwax: and Mumble servers aren't too expensive to rent
[12:57] Armin Weatherwax: :)
[12:57] WhiteStar Magic: they are quite reasonable, especially for a grid like this
[12:58] WhiteStar Magic: Freeswitch may yet work out but it's just not getting there
[12:58] Penny Rayne: No need to rent, surely. A grid would run their own.
[12:58] Armin Weatherwax: and in addition they can handle some of the chat-like messaging
[12:58] Jacek Antonelli: Cool
[12:58] WhiteStar Magic: I don;t know if Mumble allows for such
[12:59] WhiteStar Magic: running your own Mumble server, if they do, then it woudl certainly be golden
[12:59] WhiteStar Magic: That is something we could likely get setup & running here in 3RG
[13:00] Thoria Millgrove: voice is fairly high on my research list for 3rg
[13:00] Thoria Millgrove: so this is very ineteresting
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Mumble seems to be open source, looks like you can set up your own servers (called "Murmur")
[13:00] Sebastean Steamweaver is reading back
[13:00] WhiteStar Magic: for those that don;t know, I am working with 3RG as a Tech Support and Implementation advisor and implementing optimizations and mods to improve the grid's overall operations
[13:01] Sebastean Steamweaver: One thing I would suggest, although like Penny I like the separation of account, and avatar, you might want to let people know there is a difference when signing up. People won't always realize that they are separate, especially if coming from places like SL.
[13:01] Penny Rayne: --- fully open source, server and client
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: WhiteStar: Awesome :D
[13:01] Thoria Millgrove: and WhiteStar has a been a huge help in that
[13:01] McCabe Maxsted: rock on, WhiteStar
[13:01] Thoria Millgrove: he's helped resolve some major chat lag issues we were having
[13:01] WhiteStar Magic: <--- Old Fart gets around
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[13:01] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[13:02] Penny Rayne: Is anyone here a 3RG admin?
[13:02] Thoria Millgrove: I'm sort of on the edges of that, Penny
[13:02] WhiteStar Magic: in a fashion, I have full server and systems access
[13:02] Thoria Millgrove: I'm not the primary admin, but I'm on the team
[13:03] Thoria Millgrove: as well as being our viewer liason :-)
[13:03] Penny Rayne: Thoria: I was wondering whether an account name blocks the avatar name. Because I registered the Penny Lane account, and then discovered the Penny Lane av name was not available.
[13:03] Thoria Millgrove: no, it should not block
[13:03] Thoria Millgrove: somebody else must have claimed that name
[13:03] Penny Rayne: KK. Someone much already have it then, too bad.
[13:04] Sebastean Steamweaver nods
[13:04] McCabe Maxsted plots to find them and shake them down for their last name
[13:04] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[13:04] Penny Rayne: But the login screen should test the av name, so that it doesn't happen to others who want the same name for account and av
[13:04] Sebastean Steamweaver: I registered my account here as "Sebastean Steamweaver" not realizing that it wouldn't be my avatar name.
[13:04] Penny Rayne: I mean register screen
[13:04] McCabe Maxsted: wb jacek
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: D'oh, crash
[13:04] Armin Weatherwax: what about search - is here already any search engine?
[13:05] Armin Weatherwax: wb :)
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: Can someone send me the last 5 minutes of chat?
[13:05] Thoria Millgrove: not yet Armin; that's also high on my research list
[13:05] Penny Rayne: Seb: you mean that the accoutn name DID block your av name? So you have to redo?
[13:05] Penny Rayne: Had*
[13:06] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks WhiteStar
[13:06] WhiteStar Magic: we have started to setup for search already, I am packaging it into teh binary of OpenSim for here
[13:06] Penny Rayne: Cool WhiteStar
[13:06] WhiteStar Magic: Just have soe backend stuff to do yet
[13:06] McCabe Maxsted: is that available to the grid manager?
[13:07] WhiteStar Magic: using the std ossearch
[13:07] Armin Weatherwax: Mccabe: in theory yes, if the grid provides it
[13:07] Penny Rayne: McCabe: the grid manager doesn't need to know the account name. It logs in the av name with the av passord --- that's a good design I think. Accounts not relevant on login.
[13:07] WhiteStar Magic: of course, that will die with teh PR version of OpenSim like most everything else
[13:08] Penny Rayne: It gets too complex to have the account name in login. Begs the question of which password you're supplying
[13:08] WhiteStar Magic: WB again
[13:08] Jacek Antonelli: Note to self: Fix crash when taking snapshot
[13:08] Penny Rayne wants OpenID auth
[13:09] Thoria Millgrove: lol Jacek
[13:09] Armin Weatherwax: my screen is also full of sticky notes
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted keeps hearing about this presence refactor... is it something we should have on our radar, or will the viewer still behave the same?
[13:09] WhiteStar Magic: does not affect teh viewer much
[13:10] WhiteStar Magic: it's all OpenSim core services
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted nods, k
[13:10] WhiteStar Magic: this may be a bit early to say, BUT.. if SimianGrid continues current path, it is a Potentially a High probability that it will come here
[13:11] WhiteStar Magic: and it will use OpenID
[13:11] WhiteStar Magic: as well as regular account creation
[13:11] Penny Rayne: Yep, OpenID+OAuth
[13:11] McCabe Maxsted: cool
[13:11] Penny Rayne: But again, it raises the question of where "account" fits in.
[13:12] Penny Rayne: I think "account" is something that crept in from LL's conflating of various things
[13:13] Latha Serevi: In the brave new world, I wonder, should I want to have multiple OpenID's for my alts, or a single one with some sub-identity notion?
[13:13] Penny Rayne: Once we have full interop across worlds just a click away, the "account" concept becomes odd.
[13:13] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. If some OpenSim grids start supporting it, we could make so you can log in with an account, and then choose from a list of avatars (or something like that)
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: Or... whatever. :)
[13:14] Penny Rayne: Latha: a single authentication ID for all the avatars that you consider to be the same personna, seems reasonable.
[13:14] Thoria Millgrove: and technology collides with psychology :-)
[13:14] WhiteStar Magic: as I understand at present, Simin will allow either or, depending on who installs it and which method(s) they choose to allow
[13:14] WhiteStar Magic: **Simin = Siman
[13:15] WhiteStar Magic: bah
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: Hehe
[13:15] Thoria Millgrove: hehe
[13:15] Armin Weatherwax: supports 3rdrock alts without registering a nth account?
[13:15] Penny Rayne: I can't type Simian either
[13:15] Kakurady Drakenar: Monkies...
[13:15] WhiteStar Magic: it's all Monkey Business
[13:15] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, it's about time to wrap up the meeting, I think.
[13:16] Jacek Antonelli: Next week will be on ReactionGrid. I'll post on the blog and ImpDev as the final tour dates and locations are finalized
[13:16] Penny Rayne: Cool
[13:16] Armin Weatherwax: yay :)
[13:16] Thoria Millgrove: that sounds good
[13:16] WhiteStar Magic: any chance that Imp will start posting Nightly Builds for testing ?
[13:16] Jacek Antonelli: Hm, should we smash a guitar? Oh wait, this isn't the end of a rock concert
[13:17] McCabe Maxsted encourages everyone to file crash/bug reports they find on opensim :)
[13:17] Penny Rayne: Does there a spot on the forum for notices? Can't remember
[13:17] McCabe Maxsted: whitestar: I'm looking into it for windows
[13:17] Penny Rayne: Ah, in every forum I think.
[13:17] WhiteStar Magic: Great McCabe
[13:17] Penny Rayne: Mantis?
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: I'll create a forum thread to gather feedback about issues with connecting to OpenSim
[13:18] WhiteStar Magic: last question: everyone asks, so I'm askin too.... Built in AO ?
[13:18] Thoria Millgrove: There's DJ'ed music tonight in Heaven region, from 5:00 - 7:00 PM PDT
[13:19] Jacek Antonelli: AO is coming. McCabe ported it just in the past few days :)
[13:19] Penny Rayne: Thoria: got an LM?
[13:19] WhiteStar Magic: I gave him a pile of Anims the other day, so I assumed
[13:19] Thoria Millgrove looks
[13:19] McCabe Maxsted: they were very helpful, thanks :)
[13:19] McCabe Maxsted can send you an installer with the ao in it if you'd like to try it out (still need to finish one bit of ui though)
[13:20] Penny Rayne: Thanks Thoria
[13:20] Thoria Millgrove: would anybody else like that LM?
[13:20] WhiteStar Magic: raises hand to both
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: Yes please, Thoria :)
[13:20] Penny Rayne: Nice to see so many purple tags :-)
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: Yay, purple :D
[13:20] WhiteStar Magic: do you want to anims here too McCabe ?
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: please :)
[13:20] Penny Rayne: Talking about tags, how is that detected?
[13:21] WhiteStar Magic: I brought in my OSG IAR to here... makes life easier
[13:21] Jacek Antonelli: Imprudence broadcasts a specific UUID when another viewer asks for a clothing layer texture
[13:22] Penny Rayne: WS: can plain users dump an IAR to import here?
[13:22] Armin Weatherwax: Thoria: hehe i fear its too late for me
[13:22] Thoria Millgrove: that's what coffee is for, Armin ;-)
[13:22] Kakurady Drakenar: Is it an actual texture on an actual grid?
[13:22] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm. It's an actual texture on the SL grid. It doesn't exist anywhere else, though. But that's not a big problem
[13:22] Penny Rayne: Not P2P "broadcast", right?
[13:22] Kakurady Drakenar could sware he once saw that texture
[13:23] Jacek Antonelli: Hrm, "broadcast" is the wrong word. One viewer asks (relayed through the sim, I believe) for a clothing layer texture UUID. Then the other viewer responds.
[13:23] WhiteStar Magic: Penny, the only way to get an IAR into a grid is with direct server console access
[13:24] Penny Rayne: KK WS
[13:24] WhiteStar Magic: There is no function for the regular user to do so
[13:24] Kakurady Drakenar: What is an IAR?
[13:24] Penny Rayne: Inventory archive
[13:24] WhiteStar Magic: BUT.. Justin & I discussed various methods that could accomplish that and he is wrapping his brain around how to accomplish such
[13:25] WhiteStar Magic: We can load OARS from HTTP so IAR could possibly be done in teh same manner
[13:25] WhiteStar Magic: but they can be very BIG
[13:25] Penny Rayne: Does Imprudence allow export of wearables?
[13:25] Penny Rayne: Including shapes
[13:25] Kakurady Drakenar: Not the assets, only the actual data.
[13:25] McCabe Maxsted: shapes, yes
[13:26] WhiteStar Magic: Ideally, a Viewer withteh ability to download an Inventory Archive and Upload same would be the best all around solution... but we all knw what kind of issues that would raise with creators and all that "stuff"
[13:26] Penny Rayne: Where is that in the UI McCabe?
[13:26] Jacek Antonelli: Import and Export buttons in the Appearance editor
[13:26] Thoria Millgrove: afk brb
[13:26] Jacek Antonelli: Doesn't work for clothing, though
[13:27] Kakurady Drakenar: Would it be possible to have the server to fetch inventory from a different "agent domain" or something like that?
[13:28] Kakurady Drakenar: Like a library, except it belongs to another grid.
[13:28] Armin Weatherwax: think HPA could export them, and binary animations and sounds, at least the comments in the source suggest that
[13:28] Thoria Millgrove: back
[13:28] WhiteStar Magic: WB
[13:29] WhiteStar Magic: I wonder if components from SL My Inventory could be borrowed and popped into a viewer
[13:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: I personally found a look I liked, and then specifically recreated it as close I could with my own work so that I could "own" it and transport it. Some things, like my clothes, I didn't, but my general appearance is mine. Sometimes I revert to wearing the originals, but in prep for interop, I recreated myself.
[13:29] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm actually working on trying to export that now, heh.
[13:29] WhiteStar Magic: something which was discussed a bit with Meerkat prior to it's demise
[13:29] Penny Rayne: Kakurady: eventually VWRAP will allow arbitrary number of asset services, because it's needed for VW tourism. If you imagine N tourists from N worlds each using their own asset service, then when they visit a tourist world, a person in that tourist world needs to be able to access N+1 asset services at least.
[13:30] Penny Rayne: Hurli says "Indeed, but not implemented in CB yet"
[13:30] Sebastean Steamweaver: WhiteStar, I'm not sure if you saw my comments earlier on 3rd party asset hosting?
[13:30] Latha Serevi: I'm gonna have to think about the tradeoffs between a client-based local save 'n restore ability versus a portable asset service. Takes less coordination between grids, in some ways ... just locally cache your essentials and then use a handy client upload facility to put them into whatever asset store the sim you're on is using.
[13:31] Penny Rayne: Yeah
[13:31] Penny Rayne: The "all worlds store everything" paradigm can't work. Total meltdown.
[13:31] Thoria Millgrove: both approaches could coexist
[13:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: Or perhaps, having various grids provide ways for viewers to access their assets from other grids.
[13:31] Penny Rayne: Seb: yes, that's Hypergrid.
[13:31] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ah - I wasn't up on the lingo
[13:31] Penny Rayne: And VWRAP is very close to Hypergrid
[13:32] WhiteStar Magic: HG & VWRAP are side X side for those purposes
[13:32] Latha Serevi: Sebastean, yeah, that was Plan A, but I'm now thinking thaty a viewer based Plan B based on caching small inventories locally and using explicit upload, might help paper over our current "darn, I'm
[13:32] Sebastean Steamweaver: I need to bring myself up to speed so I'm not suggesting old ideas lol
[13:32] Latha Serevi: ... I'm Ruth" issues
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[13:33] Penny Rayne: VWRAP takes Hypergrid one step further, in that HG requires assets to be funneled through the sim (not HG's fault, it's the stupid LL viewer's fault), but VWRAP allows you to access those remote assets directly. No sim bottleneck.
[13:33] WhiteStar Magic: One thing I would suggest in any case, taht shoudl someone have teh ability to archive, restore etc, taht it becoms a no trans, no copy item
[13:34] WhiteStar Magic: yeah... lot's of gray area there
[13:34] Armin Weatherwax: so i can get my assets from any webstorage? cool :D
[13:34] WhiteStar Magic: but I would not want to hear peopel yelling that the sky is falling and teh pixels are melting
[13:34] Penny Rayne: WS: I have little time for content protectionsists in open grids. Let them stay in SL.
[13:35] Armin Weatherwax: Penny ++
[13:35] WhiteStar Magic: heheheh... They can keep Profky, no one else wants her
[13:35] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[13:36] McCabe Maxsted: there needs to be a Godwin's Law for virtual worlds.... Porky's Law or something
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[13:36] Penny Rayne: If the web had its content restricted, it would be dead. It only works because everyone can read and use everything. (That doesn't mean you can sell it of course, just read and use)
[13:36] Armin Weatherwax: their world ... their imagination - formerly known as sl now Busineyland
[13:36] Kakurady Drakenar: I doubt about that...
[13:36] McCabe Maxsted: wb sebastean
[13:36] Sebastean Steamweaver: One thing I've noticed - when I try to import things, it crashes me.
[13:36] Latha Serevi: Let's not get distracted by the black hole of DRM issues today, though....
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: import an object?
[13:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Then when I try to log back in, it gets stuck on "connecting to region" and I have to cancel it and re-initiate.
[13:37] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yes
[13:37] WhiteStar Magic: agreed but it must be kept somewhere in the dark recesses of thinking
[13:37] Latha Serevi: I'm having an interesting few moments with the notion that the user's client can be an interop "bridging tool" using archive/upload with compatible grids.
[13:38] Latha Serevi: It happens to minimize the difficulty on the user side -- find the right viewer and interop becomes a matter of moving around, as opposed to waiting a few years for everybody to be VWRAP friendly and able to use a simpler viewer with the nice distributed services.
[13:38] Thoria Millgrove: hmmm, add an autoregistration capability to the viewer for visiting new grids
[13:39] Latha Serevi: Thoria, hopefully registration can be the first VWRAP thing to get out broadly
[13:39] Penny Rayne: Latha: I don't understand! :P But I'd like to --- keep talking, I'm listening :-)
[13:39] Thoria Millgrove: with some graceful way of handling the case of somebody else beating you to "Penny Lane"
[13:40] Penny Rayne: Thoria: no no, first come first served is fine. As long as a name registrar prevents name squatters, it's fair
[13:40] Thoria Millgrove: in the physical world, there are others who share my name
[13:40] Thoria Millgrove: with interop, that's likely to rise more often as an issue, too
[13:40] Thoria Millgrove: it caused me problems yesterday getting a password reset
[13:40] Penny Rayne: Yes, the visible name should not be unique
[13:40] Latha Serevi: Penny, I'm not being too coherent, but my thought of the moment was, if we have VWRAP auth and not much else compatibility between grid A and grid B, and they havne't yet agreed on ways to use distributed asset stores.....Imiprudence archive&upload to the rescue, if it's pariwise supported with the sim/grid.
[13:40] Thoria Millgrove: they ended up resetting somebody else's password in another state who shares my name :-P
[13:41] Penny Rayne: Latha: something like that, yes! But I don't have any workable design in mind.
[13:41] Sebastean Steamweaver: So far Emerald is the only viewer that doesn't crash me when I import.
[13:42] WhiteStar Magic: I use Cool Viewer in OpenSim as Emerald and OpenSim don;t really like each other
[13:42] Penny Rayne: Hmmm, lemme try an import of a crappy prim
[13:42] WhiteStar Magic: CV does it well
[13:43] Penny Rayne: Seb, did you say Rainbow Viewer is good for import/export?
[13:43] Jacek Antonelli: WhiteStar: Cool Viewer? Blasphemy! Burn the heretic!
[13:43] WhiteStar Magic: Although, it seems that Henri is verring into strange places
[13:43] WhiteStar Magic: LOLO Jacek... BUT IT WORKS
[13:43] WhiteStar Magic: abd does nto crash me
[13:43] Penny Rayne: Jacek: we want better import / export .... and we're going to push on you :-)
[13:43] Dale Glass: what's the problem with Emerald?
[13:43] WhiteStar Magic: and I hate crashing while coding or building
[13:44] Ron Overdrive: well that's what k\o\w's HPA is for, but Jacek wants backwards compatability
[13:44] Thoria Millgrove: Emerald doesn't load textures reliably in opensim
[13:44] Thoria Millgrove: at least, the last few versions don't
[13:44] Ron Overdrive: yeah Emerald has probelms with that for some reason
[13:44] WhiteStar Magic: Dale, if you want to know, goto OSG and talk to folks about Emerald
[13:44] Thoria Millgrove: you end up looking at untextured prims
[13:45] WhiteStar Magic: Wear a Helmet and Armour
[13:45] Penny Rayne: Import / export is the key to expanding open grids, until there are proper interop protocols. Just because SL Luddites have a problem with it in their walled garden is no reason for us not to have flexible import / export in open grids. We're not supporting SL after all.
[13:45] Penny Rayne: Poor Seb :-(
[13:45] Thoria Millgrove: Emerald added the grid manager, and 3rd Rock sorts alphabetically to the top, so we got a lot of first time visitors who decided our grid was crappy
[13:45] Sebastean Steamweaver: That time my disconnect was my own fault, hehe.
[13:46] Thoria Millgrove: the ones we got to, and convinced to try another viewer, realised the problem
[13:46] Sebastean Steamweaver: Spent too much time in the upload dialog.
[13:46] Penny Rayne: Thoria: hahaha :-(
[13:46] Thoria Millgrove: but many never came back
[13:46] Penny Rayne: Thoria: what about Hypergrid? You'll get a lot more visitors, and some will stay!
[13:46] Jacek Antonelli: Alas.
[13:46] Thoria Millgrove: so Emerald has left a bit of a bad taste here
[13:47] Thoria Millgrove: yes, Hypergrid may be in the future
[13:47] WhiteStar Magic: one thing that people don't know (Lame Labs Refugees) is taht you cannot drive a viewer, ANY viewer at 1000 kbps or higher
[13:47] Thoria Millgrove: there have been, rightly or wrongly, security concerns about HG
[13:47] Jacek Antonelli: Well, soon Imprudence will dominate the OpenSim viewer market, and then we'll impose our will on you all. Muahahaha! ... wait, did I type that out loud?
[13:47] Thoria Millgrove: and it's not my decision
[13:47] Latha Serevi: I don't understand how the sim typically mediates between client and asset store, in the course of legacy SL and Opensim building. My thought was, squeeze into that hole via the viewer, using a mostly automated upload-my-travel-suitcase abiltiy, for some small set of personal inventory. The fact that prim types and scripting languages might differ between the sims would provide unlimited entertainment for the maintainer of that feature, complete with converter plugins.
[13:47] McCabe Maxsted: hmm, import and expert is working fine for me here
[13:47] Penny Rayne: Hehe Jacek :P
[13:47] McCabe Maxsted: export, even :P
[13:47] Armin Weatherwax: Narf!
[13:48] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, I think let's wrap it up. I need some lunch, and a nap.
[13:48] Penny Rayne: Being able to use our home assets via Hypergrid will almost totally eliminate the pain. Only BDSM fans will object!
[13:48] Penny Rayne: :P
[13:48] Ron Overdrive: heh
[13:48] Thoria Millgrove: hehe
[13:48] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hehe, give me a minute, brb on impru
[13:48] WhiteStar Magic: heheh ate lunch while sitting here
[13:49] Latha Serevi: I'm gonna take off too, thanks for the get-together.
[13:49] WhiteStar Magic: has anyone looked at teh traslatort in SnowGlobe, is taht something taht can be added to Imrpudence ?
[13:49] Ron Overdrive: honestly I always thought one way to mediate assets was a dynamically shared P2P asset cache
[13:49] Penny Rayne: Latha: thinking about it. Something like that needed, yes
[13:49] Penny Rayne: Cheers latha
[13:49] WhiteStar Magic: *Translator
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: Thanks for coming, everyone. And thanks to Thoria and 3RG for hosting us! :D
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: See you all next week on ReactionGrid!
[13:50] Penny Rayne: Yes, nice stable grid, Thoria!
[13:50] Penny Rayne: I'm going exploring here later.
[13:50] Ron Overdrive: I'll be checking it out tomorrow
[13:50] Thoria Millgrove: a lot of the thanks goes to WhiteStar for that, Penny
[13:50] Penny Rayne: WS++
[13:50] Thoria Millgrove: I'm glad you were all here
[13:51] Jacek Antonelli: I'll try to drop by this evening for the music :D
[13:51] Thoria Millgrove: cool
[13:51] Penny Rayne: Me too
[13:51] Armin Weatherwax: ty :)
[13:51] Ron Overdrive: alright later everyone
[13:51] WhiteStar Magic: They get good entertainmnet here
[13:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: I'm going to go exploring too, as soon as I can get myself set up, hehe.
[13:51] Thoria Millgrove: bye Ron
[13:51] McCabe Maxsted: take care all :)
[13:51] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, everyone
[13:51] WhiteStar Magic: Thoria, can you hang back for a bit please ?
[13:51] Thoria Millgrove: bye McCabe, Jacek
[13:51] Thoria Millgrove: sure WS
[13:51] Penny Rayne: Seb: awww, we're just getting used to you looking like that!
[13:51] Armin Weatherwax: take care Jacek
[13:51] Sebastean Steamweaver: D:
[13:51] WhiteStar Magic: Take Care to all departing ! Thanks for teh Meeting & Info !
[13:52] Penny Rayne: Cyu Jacek, great meeting, thanks :-)
[13:52] Sebastean Steamweaver: what's wrong with my head...
[13:52] Latha Serevi: Half of it is across the circle from you :-o
[13:52] McCabe Maxsted: setbastean, if the import crash repros can you post the object somehwere for us to try?
[13:53] WhiteStar Magic: Sculpties are the worst on Import
[13:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: So far it's happened with any linkset I've tried.
[13:53] Jacek Antonelli: Seb: Are there objects you exported with Imprudence, or a different viewer?
[13:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: Also, when I try to wear an object, it creates a copy in my inventory, and doesn't always attach to the right point.
[13:53] Sebastean Steamweaver: I wasn't able to import anything with imprudence or coolviewer - the only one that worked was emerald.
[13:53] Thoria Millgrove: have you tried meerkat?
[13:54] Penny Rayne: Well it's XML, worst case it should create vomit, but never crash the viewer. :-)
[13:54] McCabe Maxsted: she means, did you export with a viewer other than imp?
[13:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: I exported with Emerald - I couldn't find how to export attachments/objects with imprudence.
[13:54] Jacek Antonelli: The object formats vary somewhat between viewers, unfortunately.
[13:54] Jacek Antonelli: I don't think objects exported with other viewers are compatible with Imprudence
[13:54] Kakurady Drakenar: Awww
[13:54] Sebastean Steamweaver: Ahhh, that might be it.
[13:54] McCabe Maxsted nods
[13:54] Kakurady Drakenar: Why not?
[13:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: How do I export with objects?
[13:55] Jacek Antonelli:
[13:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Err, export objects/attachments?
[13:55] McCabe Maxsted: either use the pie menu option or the export option in the File menu
[13:55] Sebastean Steamweaver: Is it possible to export attachments?
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure about attachments, but you can rez them on the ground and export
[13:56] Penny Rayne: Well a plywood box imports, hehe
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: I don't think they remember their location
[13:56] WhiteStar Magic: Pet Peeve, Exports shoudl have a default directory that is settable by user, for instance c:\Exports as teh root and all exports goto sub-dirs
[13:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
[13:56] McCabe Maxsted hasn't tried importing attachments. Does emerald auto-attach them?
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Unfortunately, none of the viewers bothered to create an actual standard for the exported objects. In fact, all the content export/import features were made in an extremely lazy way. :-|
[13:56] Sebastean Steamweaver: Yeah, the thing about attachments is it saves me the hassle of having to reposition eveyrthing.
[13:57] Penny Rayne: Meerkat did the most comprehensive import/export, right? Complete objects and all assets, recursively?
[13:57] WhiteStar Magic: yup
[13:57] Sebastean Steamweaver looks for Meerkat
[13:57] WhiteStar Magic: Cool Viewer does as well
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: HPA will help that, as it's an actual defined standard that the viewers can agree on. But, we want to support loading objects that were already exported with Imprudence
[13:57] Penny Rayne: Seb: MK is no longer maintained
[13:57] Sebastean Steamweaver: Is it still able to connect?
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: I think Meerkat and Imprudence should behave the same for export/import
[13:58] Jacek Antonelli: Probably the only two viewers that are compatible with each other
[13:58] Jacek Antonelli: Because they share the same code
[13:58] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[13:58] Penny Rayne: Haha
[13:58] WhiteStar Magic: export as (XML / or / HPA)
[13:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: Hmm
[13:58] Sebastean Steamweaver: I logged into SL with imprudence, but my sculpts aren't loading.
[13:59] Jacek Antonelli: I'm not sure if we'll continue supporting exporting as XML, since it's such a crappy format. But we want import so that people won't go "Argh, I spent 2 months exporting all my creations as XML with Imprudence, and now I can't import them anymore!?"
[13:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: It set all of my sculpts to blank textures.
[13:59] Penny Rayne: Jacek: you could create a conversion tool instead
[13:59] Jacek Antonelli: Sebastean: For sculpts, I think you'll need to do Import + Upload
[13:59] Sebastean Steamweaver: Oh, I just mean viewing them.
[14:00] Sebastean Steamweaver: Not importing them
[14:00] WhiteStar Magic: That's teh best option Jacek, Import either export HPA
[14:00] WhiteStar Magic: and HPA is defined, I bet as soon as you guys ghhave it working, others will copy it... LOL
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, I've gotta run. Best of luck with your imports, Seb. You'll probably have to go back and export them with Imprudence, or else log in here with Emerald and import them
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: We ought to fix the viewer so it won't *crash* when it encounters an incompatible object, of course.
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: You can tell which features we didn't make ourselves, because they're half-baked. ;)
[14:02] Thoria Millgrove: by Jacek, take care
[14:02] WhiteStar Magic: LOL
[14:02] WhiteStar Magic: TP Safely wherever you TP
[14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Ta ta, take care everyone
[14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Viva la Imprudence!
[14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Viva la OpenSim!