ImpDev Meetups/2011-03-31

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Summary

ImpDev Meetup for March 31, 2011.

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Transcript

[12:53] Armin WeatherHax: hi again :)
[12:54] Arrehn Oberlander: Welcome back!
[12:54] Jacek Antonelli: Hi :D
[12:54] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy!
[12:54] Nicky Perian: hi all
[12:54] Thoria Millgrove: ¡hola!
[12:55] Makomk Makosen: Hellos.
[12:55] Armin WeatherHax: if i type strange things (more than usual) its my cat
[12:55] McCabe Maxsted aplogizes for not being around much lately. Going to have to leave early, too. It's been a crazy busy week!
[12:56] Stryker Jenkins: Hi Hi
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Awww
[12:56] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy stryker :)
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Stryker :)
[12:56] Arrehn Oberlander: Greets Stryker
[12:56] McCabe Maxsted: purple cloud plus glowing purple cube... nifty :D
[12:57] Armin WeatherHax: :) mccabe
[12:57] Stryker Jenkins: hopes I did not sit on someone
[12:59] Thickbrick Sleaford: $aw
[12:59] Thickbrick Sleaford: oops, I meant to say "hi people!"
[12:59] Stryker Jenkins: haha
[13:00] Armin WeatherHax: hi thick :)
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Hey Thickbrick :)
[13:00] Stryker Jenkins: thought you started a new grid money system aw$
[13:00] Stryker Jenkins: lol
[13:00] Armin WeatherHax: or new chat macros
[13:00] Thickbrick Sleaford: heh
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: "Aw-bucks". You earn them by getting people to pity you.
[13:00] Jacek Antonelli: Or find you adorable.
[13:00] Stryker Jenkins: hmmm start a new trent... nifty
[13:01] Thoria Millgrove: hi all, not trying to be rude here, just multitasking a bit
[13:01] McCabe Maxsted: :D
[13:01] Stryker Jenkins: hey... not typing sounds here?
[13:02] Jacek Antonelli: Let's get started.
[13:02] Justin Clark-Casey: Hello (again) folks
[13:02] Jacek Antonelli: First topic: Build road for Kokua: On windows, LL is developing build systems based VS2010 and autobuild and that appears to be the upcoming standard. Indications are LL doesn't plan to maintain any former build system support. Once the cut is made VS2010 will be the new build standard. Open for discussion: Should kokua project do the same and drop VS2005 support? -- Nicky Perian
[13:03] Arrehn Oberlander: That build system change might be in the 2.6 release.
[13:04] McCabe Maxsted: I'm fine with moving up to 2010 as the default; although people'll still want to compile it on, say, 2008 or whatever version they have
[13:04] Armin WeatherHax: what does that mean on win? ion linux it is not relevant which compiler was used to build a lib- is that different on win?
[13:05] Nicky Perian: libs for the most paert have to match the compliler version.
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: yeah; different versions have different results for the same code, and depending on how the lib was built ("targeted") it can only work witha specific compiler version
[13:05] Kakurady Drakenar: Yes, because of different name-mangling. It's kinda similar to how a binary produced by gCC2.x is not compatible with a binary produced by gcc4.x.
[13:05] Kakurady Drakenar: Or so I heard.
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: s'why we have fourteen boost libs in the boost package, heh
[13:05] Armin WeatherHax: that means rebuilding all libraries?
[13:05] Thickbrick Sleaford: there was a c++ ABI change (or somesuch) around gcc 3.4, I think.
[13:06] Boroondas Gupte: wasn't that from 2.x to 3.0?
[13:06] McCabe Maxsted: well LL will be rebuilding most of 'em, which is a major plus for us
[13:06] Nicky Perian: if autobuild matures the libs building should be easier
[13:06] Boroondas Gupte: long term, yes
[13:06] McCabe Maxsted: a lot of the windows libs are pretty old, too
[13:07] Armin WeatherHax: autobuild is not close to be mature - or at least the build scripts i saw so far
[13:07] Boroondas Gupte: some libs have been upgraded with the switch to autobuild
[13:08] Armin WeatherHax: ok, that would be the chance to check which libs would also build 64bit without having to do too much
[13:08] Thickbrick Sleaford: viewer-development/autobuild2010 on linux 32 now builds without any modifications, though, which is an impruvment over the current state.
[13:08] Nicky Perian: on imprudence i required 6 eiither home brewed or repackaged form LL libs
[13:08] Boroondas Gupte: and because (re)building the libs will be easier to automate, I could imagine LL will update libs more often than it used to
[13:08] Jacek Antonelli: That sounds good. Any downsides to it?
[13:09] Nicky Perian: libs to easty to rebuild and breakages from them.
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted shrugs. Potential issues with new libs, possibly slower binaries (VS2010 doesn't optimize as well as VS2005)
[13:09] Boroondas Gupte: you need autobuild, which is a custom tool (like develop.py was) but (other than develop.py) not included in the viewer source
[13:09] Nicky Perian: brb
[13:10] Boroondas Gupte: but installing it is easy
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted: but good future proofing. Nicky's 2010 libs need to be merged in for imp
[13:10] Boroondas Gupte: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Autobuild#Getting_Autobuild
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted: getting everyone using 2010 will be easier than trying to troubleshoot htem through the crappy express version
[13:11] Nicky Perian: my 2010 is express
[13:11] Nicky Perian: but will work pro
[13:12] Boroondas Gupte: I think there's enough spin in the community around the official viewer to get autobuild to build the viewer in 2010 Express almost as well as on 2010 Proper. (A lot of work for that was already done.)
[13:12] Armin WeatherHax: there is a free intel compiler suite version for linux for noncommercial use just to open a somewhat related offtopic
[13:12] McCabe Maxsted: I thought they were offering the pro version for free now? Or did I misread?
[13:12] Nicky Perian: I am have much repeat work for kokua to be built owh 2010
[13:13] Boroondas Gupte: McCabe, of 2010? Or of older versions?
[13:13] Nicky Perian: would like to merge to 2
[13:14] Nicky Perian: if you have a *.edu email adress
[13:14] Boroondas Gupte: Ah, not everyone has access to msdnAA
[13:14] McCabe Maxsted: oh no, looks like they just changed their versioning labels, nevermind me
[13:14] Arrehn Oberlander: If you used the intel compiler for linux, you might have the annoying task of supporting 3 compilers on all platforms instead of two.
[13:15] McCabe Maxsted: $12k for visual studio "ultimate"
[13:15] Armin WeatherHax: $12k o.0
[13:15] Jacek Antonelli: o_o
[13:15] McCabe Maxsted: you can renew for only $3,799!
[13:15] Nicky Perian: for most purposes 2010 express will work
[13:16] Justin Clark-Casey chokes
[13:16] Jacek Antonelli: Is that the version that automatically fixes all your bugs for you? It better, for that price.
[13:16] Nicky Perian: but for distribution that may be a problem
[13:16] Armin WeatherHax: the intel compiler is about $300 IIRC - and as i read it rocks
[13:17] Stryker Jenkins whispers: is still looking for his rich long lost uncle overseas... so don't look at me...
[13:17] Ron Overdrive: and apple now wants either $5 for Xcode 4 or $100 a year to be a part of their developers program :P
[13:17] Arrehn Oberlander: Kirsten uses it. From what he's mentioned at office hours, he has had to make source changes specific to the intel compiler.
[13:18] Armin WeatherHax: its more peaky than gcc from my first test
[13:18] Ron Overdrive: mind you apparently there's some issues running an ICC enhanced binary on AMD CPU's that Kirsten ran into as well
[13:18] Makomk Makosen: Intel compiler rocks if you use Intel processors.
[13:19] Makomk Makosen: On AMD processors, the resulting code isn't *as* artificially crippled as it used to be, but...
[13:19] McCabe Maxsted: ICC free for non-commercial download?! http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/non-commercial-software-download/
[13:20] Boroondas Gupte: only for linux, it seems
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: What's the distribution problem with VS2010 express?
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: anyway gotta run
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted waves! take care
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: Take care McCabe
[13:20] Armin WeatherHax: take care
[13:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bye mccabe
[13:20] Justin Clark-Casey: oops
[13:20] Armin WeatherHax: oh, already away
[13:21] Nicky Perian: express isnt set up IIRC as a redistrubution product
[13:21] Ron Overdrive: honestly if we could get Imp/Kokua to compile under cygwin/MinGW we could just do everything in GCC
[13:21] Nicky Perian: it cab be forced to be though
[13:21] Nicky Perian: can
[13:22] Armin WeatherHax: well, anyway - i loved to have a first kokua test build soon, that is this or next week. it needs to be tested in the wild, especially on opensim
[13:23] Stryker Jenkins: can't wait for the first "screenshots" either... but that's from a usability point of view...
[13:23] Ron Overdrive: well I know we'll be testing Kokua here at Rutgers.. we intend to have Imprudence & Kokua as our official viewers for our grid
[13:23] Boroondas Gupte: brb
[13:24] Jacek Antonelli: Hm, okay. Anything more to say about autobuild/VS2010 right now?
[13:25] Jacek Antonelli: I guess not. We can discuss it on the mailing list if there's more to say, though.
[13:26] Boroondas Gupte: Long term, if we want to keep up to date with upstream, we probably won't get around autobuild. But we can postpone adopting as long or as little as we feel comfortable, I guess.
[13:27] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[13:27] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, autobuild looks like a big improvement in the long run
[13:28] Armin WeatherHax: so what are feelings about having a kokua test build?
[13:28] Jacek Antonelli: Ok. Kokua test build...
[13:28] Stryker Jenkins: haha... is that a Alpha "Experimental"?
[13:29] Jacek Antonelli: Probably not this week, but next week is okay.
[13:30] Armin WeatherHax: well, its not as far as firestorm is - its to see what goes wrong, (compared to FS which already checks what already is working)
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: I haven't checked it for TPV compliance, though. Or hosting library source code. Or other annoying "legal" stuff like that.
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: But I guess it's not a big deal just for a test build.
[13:31] Stryker Jenkins: well it maybe wise to give the "general public" a taste of things to come... even if it's just a blog post with some screenshots
[13:31] Jacek Antonelli: It'll be very important to set people's expectations appropriately, though. They need to understand that it's not the finished product at all, just testing for problems.
[13:31] Boroondas Gupte: screenshots will still look very Viewer-2-ish won't they?
[13:32] Ron Overdrive: call it an "Open Alpha Test"
[13:32] Nicky Perian: will ir be linux only
[13:32] Armin WeatherHax: tvpp compliance i don't see anything which could violate it - i removed all LL logos (i hope) - and the patches are ours or from lgpl sources.
[13:32] Jacek Antonelli: I think it will probably be for all platforms
[13:33] Stryker Jenkins: bit offtopic... will it use web profiles?
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: Ok Armin, good to hear
[13:34] Jacek Antonelli: I don't think we have merged in Viewer 2.5 yet, so no web profiles. Unless someone wants to do that merge?
[13:35] Boroondas Gupte: Should both profile types remain available once 2.5 gets merged?
[13:35] Stryker Jenkins: well I got a pet peeff with the current profile "interests" tab... it's unreadable for people with visual issues like mine... hope that can be looked at.
[13:35] Stryker Jenkins: the "grayed" out stuff bugs me there
[13:35] Boroondas Gupte: The interest tab is completely missing in V2
[13:36] Armin WeatherHax: lets wait with a big merge after the test build, i really want to have people to habve something soon - and a merge can delay that for weeks with a bit of bad luck
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: Ok, Armin
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: Let's aim for next weekend, then?
[13:36] Ron Overdrive: agreed.. put out a test then start the merge
[13:37] Stryker Jenkins: yeah... they did some tags in the new webprofile to replace the interrest stuff... Don't know where LL is taking that idea to.
[13:37] Arrehn Oberlander: I don't think LL knows either.
[13:37] Armin WeatherHax: also it might be worth to have a look at mesh for the next merge, as i interpret Oz from the last tpv meeting they are going for that soon
[13:37] Boroondas Gupte: Once we merge, should both profile types remain available? The non-web ones seem to be popular.
[13:38] Stryker Jenkins: depents on the changes in UI I guess
[13:38] Jacek Antonelli: Boroondas: Ideally, yes, they should both be available. We'll at least need the old ones for OpenSim still.
[13:38] Boroondas Gupte: right
[13:39] Jacek Antonelli: Armin: Mesh merge sounds fine to me. Do I need to set up a HG-to-Git conversion for the mesh repository?
[13:39] Justin Clark-Casey: Yeah. Some basic support for web profiles should probably come to opensim at some stage, but I suspect main support will be left to outside addons
[13:40] Thickbrick Sleaford pushes to the end of the agenda list (too lazy to add to the wiki...): media filters: tracking henri's version of the patch (now at v4), and http://redmine.kokuaviewer.org/issues/829
[13:41] Armin WeatherHax: Justin, are you into the issue with inventory links - i see it only on OSGrid, where they accumulate like crazy. is that osgrid specific or an opensim issue?
[13:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect opensim. Any idea if there's a mantis?
[13:41] Armin WeatherHax: I didn't check, though i don't have issues in 3rg
[13:42] Justin Clark-Casey: viewer 2 related, right?
[13:42] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, but we want to have inventory links in imprudence, too
[13:43] Justin Clark-Casey: ok. I'm anticipating getting a good chunk of time to start working on issues next week, though initially I'll be concentrating on 0.7.1 blockers
[13:43] Justin Clark-Casey: can I ask you for more details when I get to it?
[13:43] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, feel free to use mail, or twitter, or ... too
[13:44] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks :)
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli: Ok, let's talk about media filters as Thickbrick brought up
[13:46] Armin WeatherHax: we can not do much on viewer side to disable them, so far the best approach is to disable menus
[13:46] Jacek Antonelli: [13:40] Thickbrick Sleaford pushes to the end of the agenda list (too lazy to add to the wiki...): media filters: tracking henri's version of the patch (now at v4), and http://redmine.kokuaviewer.org/issues/829
[13:47] Stryker Jenkins: one thing I noticed was the extreamly huge popup screen for the white/blacklist buttons... I hope form a UI point of view some tweaks can be made there
[13:47] Nicky Perian: Canwe have a means to disable media filters?
[13:47] Thickbrick Sleaford: I updated to Henri's v4 patch and fixed a bug in it, and am now working on #829
[13:47] Jacek Antonelli: That's part of #829, Nicky
[13:47] Thickbrick Sleaford: Nicky, that (part) of #829
[13:47] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[13:47] Nicky Perian: great
[13:48] Jacek Antonelli: What's new in Henri's v4 patch?
[13:48] Armin WeatherHax: btw iyou have access to the media url settings here thickbrick - if i did it right
[13:49] Boroondas Gupte: is this related to Tonyas work at https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-25062 ?
[13:49] Thickbrick Sleaford: it's more aware of IPs, and also tried (and fails) to handle specific LSL http-server objects, without banning the hole sim's host.
[13:50] Thickbrick Sleaford: Boroondas, that JIRA seems to be for submitting the code Henri's patch is based on to snowstorm.
[13:50] Boroondas Gupte: ic
[13:51] Stryker Jenkins: from a look / feel of the mediafilter popup... is it feasible to rework that as a dropdown menu like box?
[13:51] Thickbrick Sleaford: here's the diff between v3 and v4: https://github.com/thickbrick/imprudence/commit/f6347b941b08a620d82ba5a11254362f392a439e
[13:52] Thickbrick Sleaford: There's a plan for a 1.4 experimental this weekend?
[13:52] Armin WeatherHax: alone for your map fix yes
[13:52] Jacek Antonelli: McCabe wants to release an Exp this weekend, but he's not sure if he'll have time to assemble it himself
[13:53] Jacek Antonelli: We need someone to take care of merging everything together
[13:53] Thickbrick Sleaford: My other question is about having the "enable mediafilter" checkbox being both *in* the floater, and in the preferences, near a button that opens the floater. Does that make sense?
[13:54] Stryker Jenkins: I'd like that ...
[13:54] Armin WeatherHax: hm, my mind runs much in kokua mode, but if necessary i'd try
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: Hm, maybe I can find time to take care of it then
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: Ok, anything else to talk about today?
[13:58] Thickbrick Sleaford: I'll try to have my media filter stuff all pushed out by tomorrow.
[13:58] Jacek Antonelli: Great, Thickbrick
[13:58] Stryker Jenkins: cool... I'll update the wiki once it's public
[13:58] Armin WeatherHax: yeah. i want to thank mccabe and our users since a month for a just in time hardware donation.
[13:59] Boroondas Gupte: There was a hardware donation?
[13:59] Armin WeatherHax: my 64bit computer was about to die, and mccabe saved me
[13:59] Jacek Antonelli: Yay :)
[13:59] Justin Clark-Casey: cool :)
[14:00] Stryker Jenkins: don't ware it too hard now ...
[14:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, got to go. See you around, folks
[14:01] Armin WeatherHax: cu justin :)
[14:01] Jacek Antonelli: Armin, want to do a little blog post about that?
[14:02] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, i just didn't find the right words yet ...
[14:02] Jacek Antonelli: Ok. :) It doesn't have to be anything fancy
[14:03] Arrehn Oberlander: Take care all
[14:03] Armin WeatherHax: :) yeah I'll find my way
[14:04] Jacek Antonelli: That reminds me. Sometime soon, I'm going to post to try to recruit a project organizer to take over some of the chores I do (and ones I should do but actually don't).
[14:04] Boroondas Gupte: cool
[14:04] Jacek Antonelli: I just wanted to give you guys a heads-up so you aren't surprised
[14:04] Boroondas Gupte: thx
[14:05] Jacek Antonelli: Ok. Anything else before we adjourn?
[14:06] Armin WeatherHax: imprudence rocks :)
[14:06] Jacek Antonelli: :D
[14:06] Stryker Jenkins: Have a nice day (or what's left of it)
[14:06] Jacek Antonelli: Good point to end on
[14:06] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, everyone :)
[14:06] Boroondas Gupte: tc
[14:06] Armin WeatherHax: take care :)
[14:06] Thoria Millgrove: safe paths all
[14:07] Nicky Perian: later all
Retrieved from "http://wiki.kokuaviewer.org/wiki/ImpDev_Meetups/2011-03-31"
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