ImpDev Meetups/2012-01-04

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ImpDev Meetup for January 4, 2012.

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Agenda Items

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[11:56] Penny Rayne: Hiya Bor! --- Happy New Year
[11:57] Penny Rayne: Nice pink cloud :P
[11:57] Boroondas Gupte: Heya, thanks! Same to you
[11:58] Boroondas Gupte: re: New Year, that is. Didn't see you clouded.
[11:58] Penny Rayne: No more cute cloud
[11:58] Boroondas Gupte: :-P
[11:58] Boroondas Gupte: Hi Nebadon
[11:59] Penny Rayne: Hey Neb, has the new Verte licensing resulted in new dev recruits yet?
[11:59] Armin WeatherHax: hi :)
[11:59] Penny Rayne: Hiya Armin! --- Happy New Year
[11:59] Boroondas Gupte: Hi Armin. Happy New Year!
[11:59] Armin WeatherHax: Happy New Year!
[11:59] Penny RaynePenny Rayne chuckles
[12:01] Boroondas Gupte: "Verte licensing"? Are we going green, now, too? (Not that I object that ... I merely wonder how.)
[12:01] Penny Rayne: Haha, is Verte "green" in French or something?
[12:01] Boroondas Gupte: Italian, I think. Not sure, though.
[12:01] Penny Rayne: Verde in Spanish, I know that one
[12:02] Armin WeatherHax: yes, in french its green
[12:02] Boroondas Gupte: ah, you're right, it's French. (for female green things)
[12:03] Boroondas Gupte: (or people)
[12:03] Armin WeatherHax: or haricots
[12:03] Penny Rayne: It was "Overte" for the foundation of course, but what's a missing 'O' here or there ... :P
[12:03] Penny Rayne: Hiya Justin! --- Happy New Year
[12:03] Boroondas Gupte: oh, I think there's a difference betwen "open" and "green" ...
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hey penny, folks. Happy new year to you too
[12:04] Armin WeatherHax: Hi Justin :) Happy new year
[12:05] Boroondas Gupte: But haven't our licenses been open alraedy before? (I don't remember us changing licences recently at all.)
[12:06] Penny Rayne: Nah, that referred to Opensim licensing. It's different now
[12:06] Boroondas Gupte: oh
[12:06] Penny Rayne: No more 6-month ban clause for looking at LL sources
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true, but it hasn't made much difference so far :)(
[12:07] Penny Rayne: Which is probably why Neb and JCC are allowed here :P
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the codebases are complex enough that it's hard to switch from one to another
[12:07] Armin WeatherHax: I looked at opensim code recently to get mumble working on my local sim
[12:07] Penny Rayne: Aww, Justin :-(
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I do entertain vague thoughts of one day doing viewer dev, but just doing opensim is a lot of work
[12:08] Armin WeatherHax: I discovered a capability I didn't kew yet
[12:08] Armin WeatherHax: knew even
[12:09] Penny Rayne: A new cap?
[12:09] Armin WeatherHax: not sure its new - its in the whisper module
[12:10] Armin WeatherHax: which makes detecting the whisper server way easier :)
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I still need to look at your chances
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: having to chase grey avatar ghosts right now, unfortunately
[12:12] Boroondas Gupte: use a rifle
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: the vivox announcement is interesting, which might take a bit of impetus out of doing mumble
[12:12] Penny Rayne: The whisper server can be anwhere right?
[12:12] Armin WeatherHax: I'm not sure they are necessary with that cap anyway
[12:12] Boroondas Gupte: what did Vivox announce?
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: yeah - it's just an ordinary mumble server
[12:13] Penny Rayne: kk
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: boroondas: they will give free vivox to qualifying non-commercial orgs on opensim
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: at their discretion of course, and for some reason you apparantly have to sign an nda
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: and seem very willing to talk to commercial companies for service
[12:13] Penny Rayne: Sod that
[12:13] Boroondas Gupte: meh
[12:14] Penny Rayne: Hiya Thoria! --- Happy New Year to you!
[12:14] Boroondas Gupte: I'd much favor an open-to-all approach.
[12:14] Thoria Millgrove: hello, happy new year!
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be ideal
[12:14] Armin WeatherHax: Hi Thoria :)
[12:15] Armin WeatherHax: happy new year
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: hi thoria
[12:16] Armin WeatherHax: Mumble has the best voip quality around, at least my impression, and what I google
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: the whisper system does seem to work quite well, actually
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: it is based on mumble after all, which has been around for a while
[12:17] Armin WeatherHax: The problem is to develop for it alone - you can't talk to yourself
[12:17] Thoria Millgrove: lol
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I run two clients on differnet machines and then get tremendous feedback :)
[12:18] Penny Rayne: Can whisper provide the same fixed volume level to all participants in a sim (or within hearing distance, with sudden cutoff) for use in presentations? The ViVox system in SL is a pain in the backside for presentations.
[12:18] Boroondas Gupte: How about the spatial abilities of the vivox-based SL voice system. Do the free/libre solutions offer something similar?
[12:18] Thoria Millgrove: I believe whisper/mumble does, yes
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: mumble does to spatial
[12:18] Penny Rayne: For presentations, it's the opposite of spatial falloff that is needed.
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: one prolem with whisper currently is that I don't know how you change the volume settings...
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: the whisper client is an adapted murmur client with the gui cut off
[12:19] Penny Rayne: Having to either sit close to the speaker or make your camera position close to the speaker is a nuisance. LL refuse to do anything about it.
[12:20] Armin WeatherHax: the normal mumble client has a plugin which allows to set ones position
[12:20] Boroondas Gupte: ic
[12:22] Penny Rayne: That's only useful when there is a single speaker though. Ideally for presentations or performances, you want simply no falloff at all.
[12:22] Boroondas Gupte: you might still want the stereo-time-difference cue for direction of the speaker, though
[12:23] Penny Rayne: Vivox's concept of not being able to hear people behind you is beyond ludicrous. Makes you wonder if their developers have a hearing problem.
[12:23] Armin WeatherHax: atm I'd love if there was a way to have some echo service - say it was an radegast just feeding anything back
[12:24] Boroondas Gupte: SL has the echo cannyon
[12:24] Armin WeatherHax: not for mumble :P
[12:24] Boroondas Gupte: obviosly :-P
[12:25] Penny Rayne: Another dead handy feature would be to be able to switch the whisper output into the land audio stream.
[12:25] Armin WeatherHax: but yes something like the echo cannyon would safe a lot trouble
[12:26] Boroondas Gupte: can we modify a server to do that?
[12:27] Armin WeatherHax: that would be also possible using a bot (for a quick and dirty solution)
[12:27] Boroondas Gupte: yeah
[12:27] Penny Rayne: At a cost of using 3 or 4 streams though
[12:28] Penny Rayne: Ideally the mumbler server would have a shoutcast lister attached
[12:28] Penny Rayne: mumble*
[12:29] Penny Rayne: Icecast, that is, the open source one.
[12:29] Armin WeatherHax: not sure what a mumble server costs right now - 2ys ago I saw them at about 1€ per 10 slots and month
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: well, if you're already running an opensim server I think you might as well chuck it on that
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: takes up very little cpu apparantely
[12:30] Penny Rayne: Ah good to know
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: or shove it on a free amazon server, though god knows what the latency would be like :)
[12:30] Boroondas Gupte: Well, we also have a dedicated server for the imp/kokua webside, don't we?
[12:31] Boroondas Gupte: As long as we don't break it, we could use it for short experiments, too, I guess.
[12:31] Penny Rayne: Aye, you can always label it experimental and cancel the service if usage ends up too much
[12:32] Armin WeatherHax: not sure, the last time I knew about our server it was a virtual one, but thats long ago
[12:32] Penny Rayne: And a donation button might put off that event.
[12:33] Boroondas Gupte: ah, might be a virtual one ... I just know we have terminal access, but off course that doesn't have to mean it's an actual physical machine
[12:33] Penny Rayne: Might be running on a plywood cube in SL :P
[12:33] Armin WeatherHax: XD
[12:34] Boroondas Gupte: I doubt you'd get mailman, mediawiki, pipermail, redmine and the forum to run on http-out :-P
[12:34] Penny Rayne: Haha
[12:34] Penny Rayne: That would deserve a Nobel prize
[12:34] Boroondas Gupte: for a static website, though? Yay, free hostingè
[12:34] Boroondas Gupte: *!
[12:35] Armin WeatherHax: hm. how about running opensim on a plywood cube in SL
[12:35] Boroondas Gupte: META!
[12:36] Penny Rayne: Jason is either typing War and Peace, or his connectiion is stuck
[12:36] Justin Clark-Casey: oops
[12:36] Penny RaynePenny Rayne chuckles
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: hey sorry I have been quiet, got very distracted
[12:37] Penny Rayne: Nothing on the official agenda?
[12:37] Armin WeatherHax: the mumble thing is quite interesting though
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: Penny about your question earlier about OpenSim recruitment
[12:38] Boroondas Gupte: Anyway ... I also share a rented server (of which I know its physical, as I'm the one renting it) with some RL friends. So that'd be a possibility, too. Again: If we're sure we don't break anything. Otherwise it might be good to just rent another small
[12:38] Penny RaynePenny Rayne perks up an ear
[12:38] Boroondas Gupte: box.
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: i would have to say no, the changing of our policy has not really attracted any new devs yet
[12:38] Penny Rayne: Hmmm
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: we get an occasional new person posting patches now and then
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: but i suspect our policy change had nothing to do with that
[12:38] Penny Rayne: That's a bit disappointing to hear :-(
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: well, I am not suprised
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer devs are very busy already
[12:39] Penny Rayne: true
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: and OpenSim is a complex beast
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: its not something you can just pickup the day after our policy change
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: it takes weeks and months to really dig your feet in
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: but
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: what it has allowed
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: is our devs to look closer at viewers
[12:39] Penny Rayne: IT's well factored though, you don't have to know everything to work on something. Whereas LL-based viewers are hairy beasts
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: which is as equally as important as new developers
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not nearly as hard as the viewer im sure
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the viewer is more lines of code
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: about a million, I think, compared to OpenSim's 300,000, which is still big
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: not nearly as many libraries required either
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: ive never tried to compile the viewer
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: but ive seen people get very frustrated trying to
[12:41] Boroondas Gupte: I still haven't compiled a 64bit viewer since the mesh merge :(
[12:41] Penny Rayne: The library situation is beyond ludicrous. LL seriously needed a good kicking for the ridiculous prebuilt libs concept.
[12:41] Nebadon Izumi: well, it makes sense in some respect
[12:41] Penny Rayne: I'm surprised that the TPVs adopted that mechanism, lock stock and barrel.
[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: having to maintain all that code themeleves would be very expensive
[12:42] Penny Rayne: No no Neb, that's not how it's done, nor required.
[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: but ya, there is always a better way
[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:42] Armin WeatherHax: Penny its not that easy to get rid of it
[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya I imagine some things they just couldnt loose easily
[12:43] Armin WeatherHax: especially since upstream doesn't care about what the forks need
[12:43] Boroondas Gupte: Well, as Windows is lacking a decent package manager, what would be the alternatives?
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: only thing I could think is write and maintain libraries themselves
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: but that would be even more insane
[12:44] Penny Rayne: Instead, the viewer should be launched from a small proggie that looks at the viewer executable with ldd (or similar on Windows) to discover what libs are needed. Then it checks whether the libs are installed on the platform natively, and if not then it checks the persistent viewer libs cache. If it's in neither, ONLY THEN does it download the prebuilts that's missing and store it in the presistent cache. That's moderatel;y sane. It gives platform libs priority, and only at most requires a single download of a prebuilt once.
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: that probably makes more sense on a single platform
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: but doing stuff cross platform gets tricky
[12:45] Boroondas Gupte: That's for distribution. What about building?
[12:45] Penny Rayne: Could do that trivially even in a shell script.
[12:46] Penny Rayne: Same for building Bor.
[12:46] Armin WeatherHax: for linux "standalone" builds done by suse build service or such would be great
[12:47] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps you should write that shell script, penny?
[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:47] Penny Rayne: There would be no need for the standalone/prebuilt dichotomy. Instead it's chosen on a per-lib basis.
[12:47] Penny Rayne: If you have all the libs installed, it's automatically "stabdalone"
[12:47] Penny Rayne: stand*
[12:48] Armin WeatherHax: the nice thing about the suse build service is that it builds for all major distros
[12:48] Penny Rayne: Not actually a bad idea to prototype it in a shell script. If it works then move it to Python for portability
[12:49] Boroondas Gupte: Python isn't bad for prototyping, either.
[12:49] Boroondas Gupte: So if you want it to be python, you could start right there.
[12:49] Penny Rayne: I'll knock it around in my head for a few days, see if it turns into something.
[12:50] Penny Rayne: Shell scripts are higher level, generally a lot shorter. But yeah, Python isn't too bad for prototyping either.
[12:51] Boroondas Gupte: with the right packages, you can stay quite high-level in Python, too
[12:52] Penny Rayne: There's still a shell script wrapping the Impy executable though. Is it the same in Kokua?
[12:52] Boroondas Gupte: yep
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: any progress on Kokua
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: ? will we see a beta release or anything soon?
[12:52] Penny Rayne: Good question Neb.
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: i can not say I have been paying as much attention as I should lately
[12:52] Penny Rayne: Or alpha
[12:54] Penny Rayne: There was some talk in a November meeting I think about the possibility of basing it on Firestorm, and one of their devs was active here I think.
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: i remember that
[12:54] Armin WeatherHax: It hasn't changed much since the birthday snapshot
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: I do see a lot more people moving to Firestorm on OSgrid
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: i still mostly use Imprudence 1.4 beta 2
[12:55] Armin WeatherHax: it has still a nasty freeze when camming around, at least on linux
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: though lately we have some inventory issues with it
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: but its on our end
[12:55] Boroondas Gupte: Re FS: Well, their lead, Arrehn, would want the Kokua team to join the Firestorm project. I don't think we've really discussed that, yet.
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: I assume your still using a bit older source base Armin?
[12:55] Penny Rayne: How strong is the desire (or time, devs, etc) to move Kokua ahead fast? It would be sad for all your efforts to be wasted.
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: have ou considered using newer code base?
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: the 2.6.4 viewer runs really well for me
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: its soo much better
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: they actually have shine working proper
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: you can even see textures reflecting in prim surfaces
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: pretty sweet
[12:56] Penny Rayne: Snowstorm has been on 3.x for a while now though
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: errr
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: sorry I mean 3.6.4
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: not 2 lol
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: typo'd
[12:57] Justin Clark-Casey: do firestorm have any meetings?
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: hmm good question
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: ive asked on many occasions about IRC
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: they apparantly despise IRC
[12:57] Justin Clark-Casey: mmmm
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: guess they are afraid of exposing their IP address or something
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: seems a bit fishy to me, but whatever
[12:58] Penny Rayne: They do yes, always have had. It always feels like intruding at a family meeeting though, alas. They're a bit insular.
[12:58] Justin Clark-Casey: on saturday?
[12:58] Boroondas Gupte: They invited us to one of their meetings, once. Was quite nice actually.
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: they have expressed a bit more interest in OpenSim lately
[12:58] Armin WeatherHax: I found them quite open
[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: and wanted to open better communications
[12:59] Penny Rayne: What was their dev;s name? Aerthn or something
[12:59] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, he seems to be a bridger
[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: but like i said they seem against joining IRC to communicate
[12:59] Boroondas Gupte: Arrehn
[12:59] Penny Rayne: ta
[12:59] Justin Clark-Casey: being on irc would be really helpful - but oh well :)
[12:59] Armin WeatherHax: Arrehn is at our meeting quite often
[12:59] Boroondas Gupte: Most contact between our teams has been via him.
[13:00] Armin WeatherHax: and severeal firestorm people are usually in our irc channels
[13:00] Justin Clark-Casey: oh right
[13:01] Penny Rayne: Anyone want to volunteer their Git repo for a test build of Kokua?
[13:01] Boroondas Gupte: ?
[13:01] Penny Rayne: Just a target to clone, lol. That sounded all wrong :P
[13:01] Armin WeatherHax: I think its just starting to get in contact, then a communication channel will be found that fits all sides needs
[13:02] Boroondas Gupte: (hg, though, not git)
[13:02] Penny Rayne: Cheers
[13:03] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, have to pop off.
[13:03] Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys around
[13:04] Boroondas Gupte: tc
[13:04] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey waves
[13:04] Penny Rayne: Cyu Justin, tc :-)
[13:04] Armin WeatherHax: tc Justin :)
[13:06] Boroondas Gupte: apropos package managers and shell scripting ... have you read,_Part_3 , Penny?
[13:06] Boroondas Gupte: A portage prototype as part of a bash tutorial :-D
[13:08] Penny Rayne: I haven't read it, but I like shell, having used it pretty much every day since the late 70's :P
[13:08] Penny Rayne: Damn, Unix is old. And me too
[13:09] Penny Rayne: Have you ever looked at Funtoo Linux? (He mentions it in passing)
[13:09] Boroondas Gupte: I'm using it right now.
[13:09] Penny Rayne: Oh cool!
[13:09] Boroondas Gupte: (Not so different from Gentoo.)
[13:10] Penny Rayne: What is its claim to fame, beyond Gentoo?
[13:10] Penny Rayne: Kokua cloned
[13:11] Boroondas Gupte: portage tree via git instead of rsync, different network interface management, compatible to red-hat kernels
[13:11] Armin WeatherHax: you have to switch to the Kokua branch ... hg update kokua
[13:11] Armin WeatherHax: and use our autobuild unless you build standalone (no idea if that works)
[13:12] Boroondas Gupte:
[13:12] Penny Rayne: What's "UNATTENDED" variable in cmake do? (Configuring ccmake currently)
[13:13] Boroondas Gupte: (More comprehensive list of Funtoo features at ... dunno which aspects might be interesting to you.)
[13:13] Boroondas Gupte: I don't think that variable is in use any more.
[13:15] Armin WeatherHax: ah short outline of the build instructions
[13:15] Penny Rayne: Thanks, switched branch
[13:16] Penny Rayne: Urgh. OK, looking. I'd just started my usual "cmake .; make", but it failed miserably. :P
[13:17] Penny Rayne: I'll give Funtoo a try, Bor. I have some servers that need updating anyway.
[13:18] Armin WeatherHax: the branch switching part isn't that good - it will end where it did for impru: any new dev is missing that part and first compiles something s/he doesn't want
[13:18] Penny Rayne: Yeah, hehe
[13:19] Thoria Millgrove: I'll leave you to it; bye all
[13:19] Boroondas Gupte: we never should have started a named branch to begin with
[13:19] Penny Rayne: That's OK. Failure after not knowing what you're doing deserves to fail. Although making it default to something useful is good too.
[13:19] Penny Rayne: Yeah, agree on the branch thing
[13:19] Penny Rayne: Bye Thoria, tc and have fun :-)
[13:21] Penny Rayne: You know, I was kind of hoping to hear some general outline of a plan for 2012 here. :-)
[13:22] Armin WeatherHax: lol, aren't we hoping for a plan since start?
[13:23] Boroondas Gupte: maybe we should make one?
[13:23] Boroondas Gupte: then again, it's kinda hard to predict who'll have how much time when
[13:24] Armin WeatherHax: attract new devs, lots, or join another viewer. the situation right now will not work.
[13:24] Boroondas Gupte: agreed
[13:24] Penny RaynePenny Rayne looks at both
[13:25] Boroondas Gupte: we don't have 'critical mass', I guess
[13:25] Boroondas Gupte: or, more importantly, critical momentum
[13:25] Armin WeatherHax: its too much work for too less people, who also have a RL
[13:26] Penny Rayne: Hard reality
[13:28] Armin WeatherHax: as long as LL did viewer2 in secret we had the back free for impru - but today its a challenge to even keep up with their work. And they improve quality since a year a lot, so its always something one really wants to have.
[13:28] Penny Rayne: Would basing Kokua off Firestorm still be fulfilling, and fun? Would it meet your usability goals too? And would there be blockers from Firestorm when you need upstream changes?
[13:30] Boroondas Gupte: I don't think basing Kokua off FS, while still maintaining it as a separate team is any more viable. We'd just run after their changes instead of LL's.
[13:30] Penny RaynePenny Rayne nods
[13:30] Armin WeatherHax: It wouldn't change trhe situation much - just hunting behind a different upstream.
[13:31] Boroondas Gupte: Yeah, that's what I meant to say.
[13:32] Armin WeatherHax: in a larger team it would be possible to have some development and a RL
[13:32] Penny Rayne: I'm not recommending nor un-recommending this, just being neutral .... but have you considered joining Firestorm team instead? (I mean the entire Kokua dev team)
[13:32] Boroondas Gupte: As said, that's what Arrehn apparently wants us to do, but we (the team) haven't discussed it yet ...
[13:33] Penny Rayne: It would be really demoralizing if Kokua devs moved individually
[13:33] Armin WeatherHax: I wouldn't want to do it alone.
[13:33] Penny Rayne: Ah, didn't know Arrehn suggested that. Interesting
[13:33] Boroondas Gupte: do what alone?
[13:34] Penny Rayne: Bor: individual attrition, devs moving to FS
[13:34] Penny Rayne: Very bad karma
[13:34] Boroondas Gupte: I don't think that's very likely.
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: While we might not have done much development recently, I think most of us identify strongly with the project and team, so we'd either join as a group or not at all.
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: Can only really speak for myself, off course, but that's the impression I have.
[13:36] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, thats my thought, too
[13:36] Penny Rayne: It's always felt that way, looking at it from outside. A good bunch of friends committed to working together and with a shared goal.
[13:38] Armin WeatherHax: My feeling is that all Impru devs, contributors and lots of users are like a big family, that always was the great thing about it
[13:39] Penny Rayne: Aye. And it worked strongly in your favour back when Emerald was seen as the Mafia.
[13:40] Penny Rayne: Less so now, but the family feeling is still there.
[13:41] Boroondas Gupte: Funny you contrast family with mafia, when the latter is usually associated with one of the former. :-P
[13:41] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, of course there are "just users" hopping from viewer to viewer, and thats also ok
[13:41] Penny Rayne: Hahaha. Good point Bor
[13:42] Armin WeatherHax: lol so viewer projects are all rival mafia gangs (/me plays that theme from the film)
[13:43] Penny Rayne: Anyway ... something needs doing, and you can't wait too long. People want mesh. The other day I ran up Singularity, a 1.x viewer with back-ported mesh support, and it's usable. People won't wait too long.
[13:43] Armin WeatherHax:
[13:44] Nebadon Izumi: Singularity is cool, but you can't upload mesh
[13:44] Penny Rayne: lol
[13:44] Penny Rayne: Neb: they're working on it
[13:44] Nebadon Izumi: ya I just don't get it, why not move onto v3 viewers
[13:44] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[13:44] Nebadon Izumi: seems so counter productive to make the 1.x viewers have that stuff
[13:45] Nebadon Izumi: its not like v3 doesnt run well on old hardware
[13:45] Boroondas Gupte: Nebadon, that's what we are (were?) trying with kokua.
[13:45] Armin WeatherHax: coolVL has mesh, too
[13:45] Penny Rayne: I guess some people don't mind chasing tail lights. Sounds like never-ending work though
[13:45] Nebadon Izumi: i have a really old p4 machine
[13:45] Nebadon Izumi: and v3 runs just fine
[13:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya, it does seem like a lot of work
[13:46] Armin WeatherHax: and yes, it doesn't make sense to me either to ride a dead horse (viewer 1 base I mean)
[13:46] Penny Rayne: Neb: V3-based sources, sure. But there's a mega-problem with using the Linden V3 client itself --- it will perpetually tie you to SL's achitecture, and make Opensim a vasal to Linden's business plans.
[13:47] Penny Rayne: I know that some people don't want Opensim to be anything but a free SL. But hopefully some people want a lot more.
[13:47] Armin WeatherHax: thats a general issue already from viewer 1 times
[13:49] Nebadon Izumi: sure, I don't think we should be just another free SL
[13:49] Armin WeatherHax: that can only be solved by having a viewer only for opensim that doesn't take SL into account anymore from the point it forks from their code base (for not forking there is already naali)
[13:49] Nebadon Izumi: I just mean in terms of maintaining a viewer source base
[13:49] Nebadon Izumi: the v3 viewer seems so much more advanced
[13:49] Nebadon Izumi: and trying to wedge some of that into the v1 seems counter productive
[13:50] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of making a totally new viewer though
[13:50] Nebadon Izumi: no one seems to be very succesful with that
[13:50] Nebadon Izumi: the Unity viewers ive seen are just terrible
[13:50] Penny Rayne: Armin: I agree there. Naali would be an ideal base, but unfortunately there is some friction involved. realXtend have pretty much dropped Taiga in favour of Tundra.
[13:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya I find realxtend very confusing
[13:51] Penny Rayne: Which means dropping Opensim, in case those names don't mean anything to you.
[13:51] Boroondas Gupte: The problem there is a bit of a dilemma: Either one of the significant interfaces (the viewer-sim protocol) is under a company's control - or you'll effectively have to variants of it, meaning either incompatibility or more work for one of the components
[13:51] Nebadon Izumi: ive never been able to do anything very cool with it
[13:52] Boroondas Gupte: Of course, the dilemma would go away, if LL agreed to using a common protocol, evolved through consensus of the involved parties ... but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
[13:53] Armin WeatherHax: there are always things that a new LL viewer breaks on opensim - like inventory links did, or new inventory caps, or etc
[13:53] Penny Rayne: Indeed. And it will always be so. Opensim should not be in thrall to LL.
[13:53] Armin WeatherHax: web profiles, marketplace references which are hardcoded
[13:54] Armin WeatherHax: on the other hand cool stuff like mesh was already prepared and waiting for a LL release
[13:55] Penny Rayne: In the absence of some planning, it looks like the open source efforts are going to drift in the same general direction as now, with LL calling the shots on both the client and server sides.
[13:55] Armin WeatherHax: interop was a great idea - but it would need LL to want it (and really want it)
[13:56] Penny Rayne: Interop can't work using LL's model. It's designed to disallow interop. But at least we won at the IETF, and stopped LL from creating an Internet standard that prevents interop.
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: I think there was a time when at least some parts of LL were quite interested in interop. But that time is gone.
[13:56] Penny Rayne: Pretty odd when you think about it, "winning" at the IETF by blocking at attempt at a disastrous standard.
[13:57] Penny Rayne: Aye
[13:57] Armin WeatherHax: what non-standard was that?
[13:58] Boroondas Gupte: Oh, well, the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. Would another one have hurt much in that regard?
[13:58] Boroondas Gupte: VWRAP, Armin
[13:58] Penny Rayne: VWRAP. It was a not-so-well-hidden attempt by Linden to impose a standard that disallowed interoperation between VWs. It created only walled garden worlds.
[13:58] Boroondas Gupte: and before that OGP, IIRC
[13:59] Penny Rayne: They finally admitted it, and so within a couple of weeks of that the IETF was terminated.
[13:59] Penny Rayne: IETF *effort*
[13:59] Penny Rayne: Pretty calous people, if you ask me.
[14:00] Penny Rayne: The IETF Mission Statement actually states that interop between Internet systems is a primary goal, after all. And they attempted the opposite. Not nice.
[14:00] Armin WeatherHax: ah, then I got VWRAP totally wrong, or I was only reading the people who wanted to make it a really open standard
[14:00] Armin WeatherHax: (like penny ....)
[14:01] Boroondas Gupte: Well, almost everyone except those who remained from LL.
[14:01] Penny Rayne: There were lots of people who wanted real interop -- like Charles of OSgrid for example. But in the end, they all drifted away, and only 2 or 3 of us were left fighting for it against LL.
[14:02] Armin WeatherHax: probably I stopped reading at any walled garden concept, because its so obviously wrong
[14:02] Penny RaynePenny Rayne nods
[14:02] Boroondas Gupte: :-P
[14:02] Penny Rayne: Anyway, line drawn under that.
[14:02] Penny Rayne: New opportunities for interop will arise.
[14:03] Armin WeatherHax: have a look at "Utherverse" how to make a perfect walled garden that no one wants
[14:03] Penny Rayne: lol
[14:04] Boroondas Gupte: Though ... openCobalt, being very non-walled, as far as I've understood, isn't nearly as popular as SL and related technologies, is it?
[14:05] Armin WeatherHax: I looked at it the other day - downloading their "client" took longeer than I stayed inworld to for sure never go back there
[14:06] Penny Rayne: OpenCobalt fails for technological reasons though. Among others, it assumes everyone is good to each other and has zero protection against griefers. That makes it an academic exercise.
[14:06] Armin WeatherHax: no idea about openCobalt
[14:06] Boroondas Gupte: ic
[14:07] Boroondas Gupte: It's a peer-to-peer based virtual world technology, Armin. Each client can also host a part of the world.
[14:07] Penny Rayne: It's an interesting cooperative environment, and very powerful because each peer node is really just an extension of the full Squeak. But hey, that's only good as an academic exercise, not in a production system.
[14:07] Armin WeatherHax: ah. I just found it on wikipedia
[14:13] Armin WeatherHax: ok, anyway, I have to pop off now. However before I do I shold mention wednesdays will be problematic this year, something else did suddenly materialize.
[14:13] Boroondas Gupte: hmm
[14:13] Boroondas Gupte: might be difficult to find yet another weekday
[14:14] Penny Rayne: --- see the video
[14:15] Penny Rayne: OpenCobalt developed from that Croquet system
[14:16] Armin WeatherHax: Well, its the startup of a new local political group, so its not 100% certain it will be wednesdays forever, so too early to move our meeting I'd say
[14:16] Boroondas Gupte: Let me guess: Pirate Party?
[14:17] Armin WeatherHax: good guess, we have a "squad" now here
[14:18] Armin WeatherHax: why ever they don't have a normal name for local group
[14:18] Penny Rayne: SOPA could be a good rallying call for new PirateParty groups. "SOPA --- this is what you get when you let commercial powers decide your rights. Welcome to serfdom."
[14:19] Armin WeatherHax: yeah, I know about that monster
[14:20] Boroondas Gupte: It's a US-only thing, though, isn't it?
[14:20] Penny Rayne: Our idiot masters in EU always follow. They call it "harmonization".
[14:21] Armin WeatherHax: well, its an attempt to wall the us internet - that will have international consequences
[14:21] Boroondas Gupte: :-\
[14:22] Armin WeatherHax: anyway ... I have to popp off now. Take care all and happy new year, again :)
[14:22] Penny Rayne: If it were just a wall around the US, it wouldn't be half as bad. Unfortunately the US considers all of .com/.net/.org etc to be "US"
[14:22] Penny Rayne: Have fun Armin :-)
[14:22] Armin WeatherHaxArmin WeatherHax waves
[14:23] Penny Rayne: I'll toodle off too, time to cook dinner.
[14:23] Penny Rayne: See you Bor, Neb. Have fun peeps :-)
[14:23] Boroondas Gupte: Enjoy!
[14:23] Penny Rayne: Thankees, same :-)