ImpDev Meetups/2012-01-29

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ImpDev Meetup for January 29, 2012.

This was a specially scheduled meeting, as opposed to our regular weekly meetings. The purpose of this meeting was to decide the fate and direction of the project going forward. The items discussed in this meeting have been hashed over during the last couple of week in the regular meetings and over the mailing lists. This meeting was a chance for everyone on the team to meet at once at a time that the most people were available to attend, as well as members of the public who wanted to listen in and offer thoughts.

At the conclusion of the meeting the following things were decided (These points match up rather closely to the agenda items further down the page)...

  • We will continue to develop Third Party Viewers and we have the manpower to do so
    • Possibly finalize Imprudence 1.4 (Perhaps with OTR), matter to be discussed further
    • Focus on Kokua using the Second Life v3.2 code base for future development
  • Continue to work with Firestorm as an ally but remain independent
  • Finalize switch to Hg for ease of import/export
  • Finalize name change from Imprudence to Kokua
  • A fresh start deserves an updated and simplified web presence (Blog/Forum/Wiki/Etc)
  • Focus on stability and cross Second Life/OpenSim support with some core features
  • Consider a new landing page with grid choices and/or tutorials (Down the line)
  • Focus on Nix 32, Nix 64 and Win 32 platforms initially (Try for Win 64 & Mac later)
  • Oz Linden has provided TPV user statistics
  • Continue weekly meetings on Wednesdays at 20:00 UTC, consider alternating days to increase attendance
  • Inform public of decisions made here via Blog, Mailing List and Wiki Meeting Log (This Page Here)
  • Statement on Privacy & Ethics
  • Consider accepting donations towards the project in the future
  • Emphasize use of mailing lists and IRC for communication (Not solely team meetings)


We live in a very different environment from the one in which Imprudence was founded. According to our Manifesto Imprudence was to answer several key dilemmas being faced by Linden Lab and their official Second Life viewer.

  • A lack of resources to make significant changes to the viewer
  • A burdensome QA that stifled whatever change was attempted by developers
  • A throng of customers who resisted any change and wanted to stick with the familiar

While these are only three of a host of issues that inspired Jacek and McCabe to create Imprudence; these are problems that could be argued Imprudence suffers from today. Since Imprudence was founded in 2008 we have seen the rise and fall and several Third Party Viewers, and for good or bad, significant changes to the official Second Life viewer. And yet even with such change the solutions now are the same as they were then.

  • Focus on approachability and ease of use
  • Create an efficient workflow and codebase that allows flexible development
  • Make the user satisfying to use, not something the user has to fight with

And I think now we can safely add a fourth item to our Manifesto, as while not originally stated it has become a core aspect of the purple sea.

  • Support and make it easy for users to explore Alternative Grids

We’ve made some awesome viewers over the years and we can see how our work has impacted the world around us. We can still create inspiring code and a viewer that stands as the benchmark against which others will be judged. We just have to return to our core values and start fresh

  • Keep an open public management, involve the public in our decision making process like we’re doing here today and on the blog
  • Keep a pro-change atmosphere, don’t be afraid to try new things just because people are used to the old way
  • Keep the community involved, put out experimental viewers, get feedback, bring in non-technical volunteers to help provide support etc
  • Use a modern distributed development model that makes it easy for us to import and export patches from the LL code base
  • Use a scalable QA model that patches can get through in a reasonable amount of time, and don’t be afraid to try new things with experimental viewers

So let’s do something exciting, let’s do something fun. It’s time to bring back the vibrancy to our purple sea.

Agenda Items

  1. Irregardless of anything else do we as a team want to continue work and are there enough of us with enough time available to work on a viewer?
    1. If the answer is no, do we want to work on something else, such as a TPV code respository like Boroondas suggested?
    2. Assuming the the is yes, do we want to start fresh or continue on the old code base?
  2. Firestorm, how closely do we want to work with them, or even for them etc?
  3. Git or Hg, let's pick one and stick with it, so which shall it be (Git is familiar to many, but Hg is used by LL and it's easier to import LL patches to Hg)?
  4. Any new client will use the Kokua name, should the project name change to Kokua as well or stay Imprudence?
  5. Should a fresh start for the project mean a fresh start for the site as well? Perhaps an integration of the Blog and Forum using the new BBPress plugin. Do we want to stick with Media Wiki and Redmine or switch to something else? Further do we need to keep all the anscilliary sites like the Q&A site or focus on simplifying our web presence?
  6. What focus should the project take, features or stability? Second Life first and foremost or OpenSim/Aurora?
  7. What should the first thing people see when they load up the viewer be? An explanation of the various alternative grids and how to access them (Many TPV users never connect to an OpenSim grid). The site blog, or a simple tutorial section on the blog? What about a grid picker, and should there be a default grid and thus it's landing page showing upon first launching the program (And changed to last used upon subsequent launchings)?
  8. What platforms do we want to support? There is no longer a Mac developer, and 64 bit is becoming more mainstream. Should we support Linux and Windows 32bit initially, or try to do 32bit and 64bit on some of the platforms?
  9. User statistics, are there any we can get from LL? If not can we create an opt-in within the client for sending hardware stats such as CPU, RAM, OS etc? Would this help us in better developing the client for our audience?
  10. Future weekly meetings, do we wish to reschedule them or is Wednesday's at 20:00 working out for everyone?
  11. How do we inform the public about what we have decided here today?
  12. Statement: Privacy and Ethics should be our highest priority, protecting our users as best we can
  13. Consider taking donations and team payouts from donations based on works done
  14. Emphasize use of mailing lists and IRC for team communication between meetings


[12:02] Kentron Katana: we'd need more chairs:)
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: running out of sits
[12:02] McCabe Maxsted: only for you ;)
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: There's always the ground. :)
[12:02] McCabe MaxstedMcCabe Maxsted waves
[12:02] CodeBastard Redgrave: <3
[12:02] Armin WeatherHax: hi McCabe :)
[12:02] Kakurady Drakenar: Hmm, maybe someone could rez something to sit on?
[12:03] CodeBastard Redgrave: wow we actually look like an interested bunch. there's hope.
[12:03] CodeBastard Redgrave: hey Zat!
[12:03] Thickbrick Sleaford: A box maybe? Possibly made of plywood?
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya, I can tell you at OSgrid there is great interest
[12:03] Thoria Millgrove: hi Z
[12:03] McCabe Maxsted: I've got plenty of ikea prims ;)
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we have people constantly asking what the status of the project is
[12:03] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn waits for someone to rez a sex bed to sit on.
[12:03] onefang Rejected: lol
[12:03] Kentron Katana: ikea .. hhah
[12:03] CodeBastard Redgrave: you tell me. i'm the Community Liaison, my fav reply nowdays is: i have no idea.
[12:04] CodeBastard Redgrave: the sad thing is, it's the truth
[12:04] Vanish Seriath: Hi everyone.
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Hiya, Vanish
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: hey Justin
[12:04] McCabe Maxsted: ahoy vanish :)
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: glad you made it
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hello
[12:04] Thoria Millgrove: hi JCC
[12:04] CodeBastard Redgrave: hey everyone
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Hey JCC:)
[12:04] onefang Rejected: G'day to everyone.
[12:04] Jacek Antonelli: Can we move or get rid of the reprocube?
[12:05] McCabe MaxstedMcCabe Maxsted waves to everyone who just tp'd in
[12:05] McCabe Maxsted: heh
[12:05] McCabe Maxsted: better?
[12:05] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, thanks
[12:06] Kentron Katana: ihehe..
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[12:06] onefang Rejectedonefang Rejected grabs a purple mushroom while he can.
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: that's like sitting at two separate tables at a wedding
[12:06] Nautilus Mortanian: we get the kids table
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:06] McCabe Maxsted: need moar shrooms
[12:06] onefang Rejected: lol
[12:06] Kentron Katana: the kids one hah
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: Better stand up
[12:07] Jacek Antonelli: onefang
[12:07] Boroondas Gupte: ?
[12:07] Kentron Katana: cool
[12:07] Thoria Millgrove: ahahahaha
[12:07] CodeBastard Redgrave: thar we go
[12:07] Thoria Millgrove: a shroom explosion
[12:07] Nautilus Mortanian: fancy
[12:07] Boroondas Gupte: ah, concentric (well almost) mushroom circles
[12:08] onefang Rejected: Maybe make it a little larger?
[12:08] ZATZAi Asturias: We'll start in just a minute. Just searching for my agenda list
[12:08] onefang Rejected: That works to.
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: We can kick the back of you seat if it's too large.
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: can't*
[12:08] McCabe Maxsted: haha!
[12:08] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, Alright, that'll do
[12:08] onefang Rejected: So long as I'm not kicking the back of Nicky.
[12:09] Mimetic Core: nicely done ;)
[12:09] Jacek Antonelli: Website is down, trying to get it back up, but I'll see if I can grab the agenda somewhere
[12:09] CodeBastard Redgrave: damn dreamhost
[12:09] ZATZAi Asturias: I'm just pulling it out of my emails
[12:10] Jacek Antonelli: Well, we've been pushing the edge of our VPS memory for several weeks, I guess it finally went too far
[12:10] onefang Rejected: Oops.
[12:10] CodeBastard Redgrave: Jacek: i guess i can host it.
[12:10] CodeBastard Redgrave: we have a IBM Bladeserver and i got my own VM on it
[12:11] CodeBastard Redgrave: 2 gigs o RAM, think that will be enough?
[12:11] Jacek Antonelli: That'd be awesome
[12:11] CodeBastard Redgrave: okay. i'll arrange that.
[12:11] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok I got a copy now
[12:11] CodeBastard Redgrave: fixed IP and everything
[12:12] Jacek Antonelli: Can you put it in a notecard, Z?
[12:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: here's a cached (old) version of the agenda:
[12:12] ZATZAi Asturias: Yah sure 1 sec
[12:12] McCabe Maxsted: \o/ thickbrick
[12:12] Thickbrick Sleaford: (from jan 22)
[12:12] onefang Rejected: My birthday. lol
[12:13] Thickbrick Sleaford: oh, wait, I thought it was relevant. It's not.
[12:13] Nautilus Mortanian: nice, mine was the 13th. happy birthday
[12:13] Boroondas Gupte: here's a slightly corrected version
[12:13] onefang Rejected: Happy birthday to you to.
[12:13] Notecard saved
[12:13] Jacek Antonelli: Okay, let's work from that pastebin
[12:13] McCabe Maxsted: :)
[12:13] CodeBastard Redgrave: yeah that works for me.
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Bor or Z, you want to lead this?
[12:14] ZATZAi Asturias: I'll take it
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: Cool
[12:14] Boroondas Gupte: cool
[12:14] CodeBastard Redgrave: kick it
[12:14] ZATZAi Asturias: My agenda is a lil longer than that one though I added an intro
[12:14] ZATZAi Asturias: I'll send to Boroondas, if you can add it to your pastebin...?
[12:14] Boroondas Gupte: ok
[12:14] Jacek Antonelli: sounds good
[12:14] Items successfully shared.
[12:15] ZATZAi Asturias: Sent
[12:15] Armin WeatherHax: how about using an eatherpad
[12:16] Boroondas Gupte:
[12:16] ZATZAi Asturias: All right here we go. I got a lil speech about Imprudence to start us off, then we'll move onto the point by point
[12:16] ZATZAi Asturias: We'll start new questions and points after we get through the official list
[12:17] CodeBastard Redgrave: i dont see anything different on that new pastebin
[12:17] ZATZAi Asturias: We live in a very different environment from the one in which Imprudence was founded. According to our Manifesto Imprudence was to answer several key dilemmas being faced by Linden Lab and their official Second Life viewer.
[12:17] ZATZAi Asturias: 1. 1. A lack of resources to make significant changes to the viewer
[12:17] ZATZAi Asturias: 2. A burdensome QA that stifled whatever change was attempted by developers
[12:17] McCabe Maxsted: /
[12:17] ZATZAi Asturias: 3. A throng of customers who resisted any change and wanted to stick with the familiar
[12:18] ZATZAi Asturias: While these are only three of a host of issues that inspired Jacek and McCabe to create Imprudence; these are problems that could be argued Imprudence suffers from today.
[12:18] Jacek AntonelliJacek Antonelli nods
[12:18] ZATZAi Asturias: Since Imprudence was founded in 2008 we have seen the rise and fall and several Third Party Viewers, and for good or bad, significant changes to the official Second Life viewer.
[12:18] ZATZAi Asturias: And yet even with such change the solutions now are the same as they were then.
[12:18] CodeBastard Redgrave: yup
[12:18] ZATZAi Asturias: 1. Focus on approachability and ease of use
[12:18] ZATZAi Asturias: 2. Create an efficient workflow and codebase that allows flexible development
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: 3. Make the user satisfying to use, not something the user has to fight with
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: And I think now we can safely add a fourth item to our Manifesto, as while not originally stated it has become a core aspect of the purple sea.
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: 4. Support and make it easy for users to explore Alternative Grids
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: We�ve made some awesome viewers over the years and we can see how our work has impacted the world around us. We can still create inspiring code and a viewer that stands as the benchmark against which others will be judged. We just have to return to our
[12:19] CodeBastard Redgrave: that became one of the core focus of the project indeed
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: 1. Keep an open public management, involve the public in our decision making process like we�re doing here today and on the blog
[12:19] ZATZAi Asturias: 2. Keep a pro-change atmosphere, don�t be afraid to try new things just because people are used to the old way
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: 3. Keep the community involved, put out experimental viewers, get feedback, bring in non-technical volunteers to help provide support etc
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: 4. Use a modern distributed development model that makes it easy for us to import and export patches from the LL code base
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: 5. Use a scalable QA model that patches can get through in a reasonable amount of time, and don�t be afraid to try new things with experimental viewers
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: So let�s do something exciting, let�s do something fun.
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: It�s time to bring back the vibrancy to our purple sea.
[12:20] ZATZAi Asturias: /end speech ;-p
[12:20] Mimetic CoreMimetic Core claps
[12:21] CodeBastard Redgrave: *claps
[12:21] Jacek Antonelli: Hear, hear.
[12:21] McCabe MaxstedMcCabe Maxsted smiles
[12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: :)
[12:21] ZATZAi Asturias: If anyone wants to add anything before we move onto the agenda feel free
[12:21] Armin WeatherHax: :)
[12:21] CodeBastard Redgrave: can i say a word?
[12:21] ZATZAi Asturias: Go ahead please
[12:22] CodeBastard Redgrave: since Jacek's departure, unfortunately, we clearly stalled. i had a LOT of fun promoting and being the kind of spokesperson for the project, and working with the users on improving it.
[12:22] CodeBastard Redgrave: we struggled with RL personal issues, lack of motivation, massive "competition" and paradigm shifts (V3, mesh, etc).
[12:23] CodeBastard Redgrave: we also have only 2 devs left, and no Mac builders anymore. and furthermore, we have to deal with 2 code bases which makes it even more complicated.
[12:23] Richardus Raymaker: I think the biggest viewer changes are now behind... SL3 seems good with the buttons this days. mesh seems to have some final state.
[12:24] CodeBastard Redgrave: i think it's time to reshuffle the core values of what made Imprudence such a great project, while keeping a scope on why we did that: to make it a better viewer for people to use.
[12:24] ZATZAi Asturias: We also added Kentron to the team officially as a Dev so that's at least three
[12:24] onefang Rejected: Three and a half if you count me. lol
[12:24] ZATZAi Asturias: We just need to bring the guy up to speed
[12:24] ZATZAi Asturias: And yes Onefang if he wants to join the project after today
[12:25] CodeBastard Redgrave: and i think that if we keep our mind on what succeeded, we can make it not only a great viewer, but the best that can be. i truely do. maybe i need to cheerlead McCabe a bit more.
[12:25] CodeBastard Redgrave: oh that's awesome news!
[12:25] CodeBastard Redgrave: that's another issue, conflicting schedules made it so i got completely out of track.
[12:25] CodeBastard Redgrave: anyways that was my foreword. please proceed.
[12:26] ZATZAi Asturias: yah that's something I hope we can work on today at the end, new meeting times that everyone can make, including you CodeBastard. It may not be possible but we'll try, maybe have two meeting times that alternate
[12:26] ZATZAi Asturias: Anyway we'll address that later, so on to the agenda
[12:26] CodeBastard Redgrave: nods
[12:26] Armin WeatherHax: Well, I sent it to the team members,as mail already and in more detail: my current RL situation keeps me pretty much from developing
[12:27] Richardus Raymaker: :(
[12:27] ZATZAi Asturias: Yes, understandable. We all have RL issues and sometimes they get in the way. Such is life
[12:27] Jacek AntonelliJacek Antonelli nods
[12:27] ZATZAi Asturias: I'm sure I can speak for everyone when I say that we wish you the best in those endeavors
[12:28] McCabe Maxsted: indeed :)
[12:28] CodeBastard Redgrave: definitely. Armin worked so fucking hard on this project. he deserves our cheers and support.
[12:28] ZATZAi Asturias: Quite So
[12:28] Armin WeatherHax: its thank you :)
[12:28] Jacek Antonelli: Aye :)
[12:28] Thoria Millgrove: bravo Armin!
[12:28] ZATZAi Asturias: Now then, I know some of us are pressed for time so here we go
[12:29] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, let's continue
[12:29] ZATZAi Asturias: Perhaps the most blunt question on the agenda
[12:29] ZATZAi Asturias: Irregardless of anything else, be it working on Kokua, or Imprudence or even some other project
[12:30] ZATZAi Asturias: Do we as a team want to keep working?
[12:30] ZATZAi Asturias: And perhaps more importantly can we?
[12:31] ZATZAi Asturias: We seem to be getting interest from new people who want to volunteer, namely Kentron and Onefang among others
[12:31] Nicky Perian: I think there is interest to have what is produced by this team
[12:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's the crucial issue
[12:31] CodeBastard Redgrave: i know i do want, but it clearly largely depends on if the core dev team can get it going, because i'm fairly useless at helping them.
[12:31] Richardus Raymaker: problem: imprudence could have some polish. but also imprudence dont have mesh. for that you need to look to sl3.2 :) hard choice.
[12:31] CodeBastard Redgrave: we know it's where we have to go Richardus, hence Kokua
[12:31] onefang Rejected: No, you don't need to go to V2 or V3 for mesh.
[12:31] Richardus Raymaker: Mesh start to be a "required" function
[12:31] Jacek Antonelli: Let's stick to the agenda, please
[12:31] Thoria Millgrove: as an alt grid operator, I see your project as extremely important; most of the other viewers see OpenSim as an afterthought
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: Indeed Thoria
[12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Thoria
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: The demand is there
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: But is the fire
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: Same here
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: Personally I would like to continue, though I am not a dev
[12:32] Richardus Raymaker: I know, but singularity have its bugs still to. and for some reason sl3.2 seems so much smoother with graphics
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: So what say you the Devs?
[12:32] CodeBastard Redgrave: same than ZAT here
[12:32] McCabe Maxsted: I would rather see us go out with a bang than a whimper, if we do at all. The want is definitely there :)
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: McCabe, Boroondas, Kentron, Onefang, Armin we know your situations and everyone else
[12:32] ZATZAi Asturias: Do you guys want to do this?
[12:32] Richardus Raymaker: Agree Thoria, tried difefrent ones. and almost noone have a grid selector.
[12:33] Boroondas Gupte: Well, I for my part would certainly want to continue (or re-start) working on Kokua. On Imprudence, not so much.
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: Nicky are you not considered a Imprudence dev?
[12:33] Justin Clark-Casey: a bang? Like put a hidden DDOS attack on the main page ;)
[12:33] onefang Rejected: lol
[12:33] McCabe Maxsted: hah
[12:33] Boroondas Gupte: However, the time I'll be able to dedicate to this will be quite limited. Won't be zero, though.
[12:33] Nicky Perian: I am for Impy endof life. Hg for version control and kokua more action.
[12:33] ZATZAi Asturias: Nicky, I knew I was going to forget a name, sorry
[12:33] McCabe Maxsted: I don't want to work on two viewers at once either
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: ok I just wanted to make sure
[12:33] onefang Rejected: Since I was asked, I've made my desires clear already. I want to work on Imprudence.
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: because I know Nicky as doing some of the Mesh upload testing stuff in kokua
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: which btw is great
[12:34] Boroondas Gupte: :-)
[12:34] CodeBastard Redgrave: i think we all agreed on that. Imp must unfortunately be phased out and we must concentrate on Kokua
[12:34] ZATZAi Asturias: So I am hearing Aye's from everyone even if some are conditional
[12:34] onefang Rejected: Yep.
[12:34] Jacek Antonelli: Sounds like that, Z
[12:34] Arrehn Oberlander: The question can be answered.... Break down the technical tasks needed to release a viewers on supported platforms, with the features you're looking for. If you can't put names against those tasks for hext 60days, wishing won't help. It's not enough to ask "can we do xxx", the proof is in the technical commitments.
[12:34] Kentron Katana: Yes, Im also for working on kokua more than imp...
[12:35] CodeBastard Redgrave: it's an aye for me Zat
[12:35] ZATZAi Asturias: Thank you CodeBastard, nice to finally meet you in the virtual flesh btw ;-)
[12:35] Richardus Raymaker: A good thing would be to have imprudence with mesh view support. and some fixes. that gives some room for new development on kokua etc.
[12:35] Justin Clark-Casey: from an outsider perspective, working on kokua sounds a much more attractive propsect than imprudence
[12:35] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Justin
[12:35] CodeBastard Redgrave: nice to finally meet you in pixels too Zat! =)
[12:35] ZATZAi Asturias: All right we're getting a lil off topic now
[12:35] Justin Clark-Casey: ppl really want a mesh + moap viewer with grid choice
[12:35] onefang Rejected: I have some experimental mesh code in my Impy fork.
[12:35] Jacek Antonelli: Next on the agenda?
[12:35] McCabe Maxsted: my time will also be somewhat limited, but I'll try to push as much as I can
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: I think that is great, to me Imprudence works just fine, there is not really much that needs fixing on it its quite solid as a viewer, but in terms of V3 i think there is lots of room for improvement
[12:36] Kentron Katana: I found some people telling that they would like to have imp with mesh though..
[12:36] Richardus Raymaker: If i see how far kokua already works. i think its betetr to spend time on that ..
[12:36] Jacek Antonelli: Guys, please. We need to stay focused or this will take 5 hours
[12:36] Justin Clark-Casey: /,e nods
[12:36] ZATZAi Asturias: Leading off from the first question now. Do we want to start fresh with Kokua? And if so do we want to keep the current Kokua code base or would it be best to start over from SL V3.2?
[12:36] ZATZAi Asturias: Nicky you might be able to answer that best
[12:36] Nicky Perian: Impy has never recovered for the streaming audio problems from over a year ago
[12:36] Kentron Katana: lets vote ? :)
[12:37] onefang Rejected: Well, IF we go Kokua, definitely should go the better V3 code base.
[12:37] Kentron Katana: I'm +1 on kokua from V3
[12:37] Armin WeatherHax: also the Kokua code is more straightforward to work with - at least the parts that got updated from upstream over the last 1-1,5 years
[12:37] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat: i think Kokua should be a patch set on the official, or we will go batshit insane. but that's for the devs to decide.
[12:37] Richardus Raymaker: i would suggest to use the new 3.2 code with moveable buttons etc.
[12:37] ZATZAi Asturias: Makes sense to me CodeBastard
[12:38] Jacek Antonelli: Agreed with Codie
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: I think that would also make borrowing stuff from other projects easier
[12:38] CodeBastard Redgrave: this would let us keep upstream with features from LL
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: like Firestorm
[12:38] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes that too
[12:38] Thickbrick Sleaford: Anybody has an idea how hard (realistically) would it be to merge viewer-development into Kokua right now?
[12:38] ZATZAi Asturias: Which transitions well into our next question
[12:38] Boroondas Gupte: It'll be easier to port or re-code the changes currently in kokua (if they still apply, anyway) on top of current LL code, than porting LL changes to our current codebase, I think
[12:38] ZATZAi Asturias: Which is Firestorm, how closely do we want to work with them?
[12:39] ZATZAi Asturias: We have a friendly relationship now, should it be more than that?
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Thickbrick: I suspect it would be a lot easier to port our V2 changes onto V3, than to try to merge them
[12:39] ZATZAi Asturias: They're on Git right?
[12:39] onefang Rejected: Guess I'm the lone vote for sticking with Imprudence.
[12:39] Richardus Raymaker: hmm take a look at zen viewer also, woks not bad. have a few things i dont like (opacity)
[12:39] Nautilus Mortanian: MG
[12:39] Nautilus Mortanian: err, HG
[12:39] Armin WeatherHax: technically kokua hasn't many patches on the UI from that merging 3.2 should be the way easier thing to do than to start from 0
[12:39] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I think Firestorm and LL are both on HG
[12:39] CodeBastard Redgrave: i'm all for collaborating for other projects but FS has a completely different scope and some trustability issues. i say friendly collaboration, good. but not a team merge.
[12:39] ZATZAi Asturias: (Onefang, we may yet do something with you and Imprudence, but have to talk about that after the meeting)
[12:40] Jacek Antonelli: (Which was why we investigated switching from HG to Git)
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: different scope?
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: i would agree with Codebastard there
[12:40] Richardus Raymaker: i dont like firestorm.
[12:40] onefang Rejected: I agree with CodeBastard there to.
[12:40] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok so work together where we can, but let's not get into bed with them per se
[12:40] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes. we always focused on usability, simplicity, and doing drastic interface changes. FS may be more of a big experimental testbed for large features. we prefer cherry picking and borrowing whaat is REALLY good.
[12:40] Kentron Katana: I also agree Codie
[12:41] Tazy Yata: a huge part dosent trust firestorm since they same devs as the emerald ones
[12:41] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect as linden are on hg it's far easier to stick with hg
[12:41] Richardus Raymaker: yes zatzai
[12:41] Justin Clark-Casey: codebastard: Ah I see, thanks
[12:41] ZATZAi Asturias: That leads to the next question well. If we're going to focus on a new v3.2 Kokua then should we finalize the switch over to Hg?
[12:41] Boroondas Gupte: Yeah
[12:41] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to be the most logical move
[12:41] McCabe Maxsted: I suppose we should finally bite the bullet there, hehe
[12:42] Richardus Raymaker: on of the reasons firestoms is bad, because the dont support text buttons.
[12:42] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, I think just bite the bullet -- hey, McCabe stole my thought
[12:42] Kentron Katana: yes, since it seems it will be easier to keep upto date
[12:42] CodeBastard Redgrave: i think it makes sense to use the same CVS than LL for 3.x codebases, again, the dev's choice
[12:42] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[12:42] onefang Rejected: Makes sense.
[12:42] Armin WeatherHax: it saves lots of time.
[12:42] Nicky Perian: then do we move imp to hg?
[12:42] Thickbrick Sleaford: I should point out that a lot of the functionality that seems missing from git *is* available as extensions for hg.
[12:42] ZATZAi Asturias: All right that was easy, onto the next question
[12:42] CodeBastard Redgrave: (but if we perpetuate Impy a bit with people like onefang, this would reside on GIT i think)
[12:42] Boroondas Gupte: Nicky, no just kokua
[12:42] ZATZAi Asturias: There is a little confusion with the name
[12:42] Armin WeatherHax: boro ++
[12:42] McCabe Maxsted: nicky: we could, bitbucket has git import now
[12:43] Boroondas Gupte: there's no sence in moving imp to hg
[12:43] Kentron Katana: Agree, just Kokua, not imp
[12:43] McCabe Maxsted: would rather not though
[12:43] Jacek Antonelli: With both LL and FS using HG, it's just simpler to use HG also. Even though Git is vastly superior. (Just trolling, don't respond.) }:)
[12:43] ZATZAi Asturias: We have the Imprudence client and the Kokua client and the Imprudence Project
[12:43] onefang Rejected: All the impy forks are on github, which makes their network tool a great thing.
[12:43] Arrehn Oberlander: Just quick quiet corrections---- Firestorms devs aren't anything like Emerald's devs, check the names, Firestorm wants better opensim compatibility, firestorm wants a text-on-button option, Firestorm is already merged to 3.2's latest UI in development code...
[12:43] ZATZAi Asturias: (all right enough on Firestorm guys)
[12:43] McCabe Maxsted: ah yeah that one's bothered me for a while
[12:43] Kentron Katana: (haah)
[12:44] Nicky Perian: BB git import is still git
[12:44] ZATZAi Asturias: So Imprudence & Kokua, just on the name. Shall we finalize that too and start calling it the Kokua Project?
[12:44] Kakurady Drakenar: I'm (very) emotionally attached to Imprudence but I suppose using Kokua might be a lot less confusion.
[12:44] ZATZAi Asturias: Especially if the Imprudence client becomes depreciated
[12:44] Kakurady Drakenar: (Besides there's the possibility of people calling it Kokua Project anyway)
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: I think that makes sense ZATZAi
[12:44] Marcus Llewellyn: As a user, calling it Kokua on all sides makes sense to me.
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: it makes a clear statement as to what the actual goal is
[12:44] onefang Rejected: Can we do it Kokuaerly?
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: less confusion
[12:44] ZATZAi Asturias: haha
[12:44] CodeBastard Redgrave: yeah we surely needed the project name change, i still love Kokua as a name. of course Imprudence will stay in my heart forever.
[12:44] Jacek Antonelli: I'd say yes, just Kokua. At least, that was the original plan, to transition to just Kokua.
[12:44] CodeBastard Redgrave: what Jacek said
[12:45] ZATZAi Asturias: We just got stuck in the middle yah
[12:45] Boroondas Gupte: +1
[12:45] Kakurady Drakenar: But Imprudence also has its meaning,
[12:45] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[12:45] McCabe Maxsted: aye
[12:45] CodeBastard Redgrave: exactly
[12:45] Armin WeatherHax: me too
[12:45] Thoria Millgrove: I think just Kokua would be fine, from our perspective
[12:45] Kentron Katana: mm not sure, may be its better so say something like 'kokua (imprudence)' just for the new users
[12:45] Jacek Antonelli: Imprudence will always have a special place in our hearts. Just not our development schedules. ;)
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: thats too confusing I think Kentron
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: that implies Imprudence is still on focus
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: people will expect new versions of imprudence
[12:46] Kakurady Drakenar: naming the project Imprudence means a commitment to rapid development, or something...
[12:46] onefang Rejected: ((I gotta leave soon. We can talk about doing Impy stuff with me on the mailing list. I'll help push out one last version as I discussed with McCabe at the last meeting.))
[12:46] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok onto the next question. If we're going to make a fresh start with the client, should we also make a fresh start on the site? Right now the various sites are a little complex.
[12:46] Jacek Antonelli: That sounds great, onefang. Thanks :)
[12:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I think now the name kokua has been introduced to the world you can't really go back to "Imprudence ve"
[12:46] Kentron Katana: ..or may be the site should make the name transition as clear as possible
[12:46] Justin Clark-Casey: v3
[12:46] ZATZAi Asturias: (Sounds good Onefang)
[12:46] Boroondas Gupte: changing names doesn't imply we're striking the imprudence name from history. People will still be able to see what we did earlier
[12:46] Marcus Llewellyn: Imprudence will iive on in the wiki, I think. Will still have it's help pages, links, etc.
[12:46] McCabe Maxsted: take care onefang
[12:46] CodeBastard Redgrave: (awesome onefang, and there's still a need for Imp so im glad someone will be able to take care of it. take care yourself, see you soon)
[12:47] Justin Clark-Casey: bye onefang
[12:47] Kentron Katana: cu onefang..
[12:47] Thoria Millgrove: hi Kadah
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: +1 for redoing the site. It has needed a revamp for... um, since we started. :D
[12:47] onefang Rejected: See you.
[12:47] Thoria Millgrove: hi Fleep
[12:47] Richardus Raymaker: bye one
[12:47] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok so with a new start should we restart the site as well? Right now we have a blog, forum, wiki, Q&A, tracker, two code repositories, etc etc. It's a lot to manage and I think it makes it hard to find what you need.
[12:47] Thoria Millgrove: bye onefang
[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: I think its important the old information does survice in some fashion
[12:47] Armin WeatherHax: Hi Kadah :)
[12:47] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes that was going to be one of my questions
[12:47] Jacek Antonelli: Agreed, Neb
[12:47] ZATZAi Asturias: I'd like to simplify it, combine or remove some of the sub sites
[12:47] CodeBastard Redgrave: i wonder if we shouldn't just do 2 separate sites
[12:47] ZATZAi Asturias: The wiki would be a good place for the old info to be archived
[12:48] Richardus Raymaker: bring it back to 1 site, the time you save you can use for kokua :)
[12:48] Kentron Katana: it needs a revamp i agree. Im not sure if start from scratch on the site. .
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: even if its not a complete restart
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: there needs to be a clear line
[12:48] CodeBastard Redgrave: since they are 2 separate projects. like as an archive for Imp and a new Kokua site
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: in seperating the information
[12:48] McCabe Maxsted: our main site is a blog; this is not kosher
[12:48] Jacek Antonelli: Well, we can keep the old content (wiki pages, blog posts, forum posts). Just restructure things.
[12:48] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't have a probem with the site right now. But than, I don't have to manage it. :)
[12:48] Kentron Katana: again my point is not to confuse too much the users :)
[12:49] ZATZAi Asturias: Personally I would like to combine the forum and blog into one using the forum plugin from Wordpress. Keep the wiki and use it to archive old info. Drop the Q&A site, keep the listservs but maybe less of them?
[12:49] CodeBastard Redgrave: well i think the combined websites may be the confusing thing right now. so i wondered if it wouldnt be more simple to just separate them. we can still use common apps like forums from both sites
[12:49] ZATZAi Asturias: You mean a seperate site for Imprudence and Kokua?
[12:49] Marcus Llewellyn: How does the wordpress forum plugin compare feature-wise to the forums you have now?
[12:50] ZATZAi Asturias: It's better I feel than PhPBB
[12:50] Richardus Raymaker: I understand codebastred. the imprudence site dont take much time, right ? so a new site make things easy to.
[12:50] Nicky Perian: Could we have armin and boroondas has senior linux developers (rl commentments) and mccabe senior windows and then may recuit for other to do most development work with back up from the them?
[12:50] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes, at least for the main content. focus. separate wikis and QA, but common forums.
[12:50] ZATZAi Asturias: And has much better antispam
[12:50] Nautilus Mortanian: im imp development is hereby terminated, why bother with even that?
[12:50] ZATZAi Asturias: If Imprudence is depreciated that might be more work than is needed though
[12:50] ZATZAi Asturias: It might be able to get by with a single page on the blog
[12:51] CodeBastard Redgrave: Nautilus: because the actual content of the Imp website mixes with the brand new one. keeping an archive of the old stuff for Imp is not really an issue.
[12:51] Nautilus Mortanian: i'm not sure i agree, it can easily cause confusion.
[12:51] ZATZAi Asturias: True archiving is easy.
[12:51] CodeBastard Redgrave: if i'm about to host it, i can handle and isolate them, start a new Kokua blog, QA and stuff. it's no big deal.
[12:51] Tazy Yata: or set imprudence as sub site acressible via link on main page
[12:51] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok, you and I will talk more about that later Codie and figure out the logistics for it
[12:52] CodeBastard Redgrave: of course we can cross link them. Looking for Imprudence? click hur!
[12:52] Jacek Antonelli: I'd like to mention that BitBucket, where the HG repository is hosted, offers free wiki and JIRA (issue tracker) for projects.
[12:52] CodeBastard Redgrave: sure thing Zatai
[12:52] Marcus Llewellyn: Personally, I'd give Imp a wiki section, and leave it at that.
[12:52] McCabe Maxsted: JIRA's come a long way :)
[12:52] ZATZAi Asturias: Onto the next question, now halfway through
[12:52] CodeBastard Redgrave: we're doing progress! \o/
[12:52] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think discussion website design at this point is pretty much bikesheding
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[12:53] CodeBastard Redgrave: ^that
[12:53] Kakurady Drakenar: Is BitBucket's wiki and issue tracker open data? Can you take your data away if you're not satisifed?
[12:53] Boroondas Gupte: yeah, let's move that to the mailing list for deeper discussion
[12:53] CodeBastard Redgrave: my question was more semantic. let's move on =)
[12:53] Kentron Katana: agree.
[12:53] Richardus Raymaker: whats the page to gte the mailing list ?
[12:53] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah
[12:53] ZATZAi Asturias: With the new client and renewed focus. What do we zone in on, features or stability? Do we go for stability in the near term and them features down the line, or try and do a little of both or what?
[12:53] Armin WeatherHax: Nicky : I really can't say when I find time for developing again, from that I think it would rather delay the project having me as a senior developer - rather have a fresh start at that point, too
[12:54] Nicky Perian: k
[12:54] CodeBastard Redgrave: stability, reliability, useful interface changes, essential features.
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: from my perspective of the latest 3.2 development viewers from LL they are very stable
[12:54] CodeBastard Redgrave: not enough for me.. yet
[12:54] Kentron Katana: mm stability, easy to use.. then features.
[12:54] Richardus Raymaker: I would sy, have the basic imprudenc functions in kokua, AO, nano prims etc. and if its stable with that expen to new things
[12:54] Justin Clark-Casey: multi-grid support woul dbe a really big thing for opensim users
[12:55] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes, absolutely justin
[12:55] CodeBastard Redgrave: i strongly agree
[12:55] Kentron Katana: yes thats important ..
[12:55] Boroondas Gupte: re mailing list: the kokua one's at , the one for imprudence at
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya from what I hear from our users at OSgrid, some people still struggle a bit with the interface
[12:55] Jacek Antonelli: I'd recommend focussing on stability, OpenSim/Aurora compatibility, ease of use, and adding new features as lower priority (and be very picky about what you add).
[12:55] ZATZAi Asturias: So I am hearing stability with a couple core features
[12:55] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, i have also not seen much problems with the SL3.2 viewer. besides some gui missers
[12:55] Kakurady Drakenar: Mmm multi-grid. I'm a SL only user but I think it's very improtant for Kokua.
[12:55] Boroondas Gupte: oops, pasted the same, twice. Meant
[12:55] CodeBastard Redgrave: i agree Jacek.
[12:55] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, we don't need *every* TOV feature under the sun.
[12:56] Marcus Llewellyn: TPV*
[12:56] Justin Clark-Casey: jacek: from a non-dev perspective that certainly sounds good
[12:56] ZATZAi Asturias: Leave that to TPV's with bigger teams
[12:56] ZATZAi Asturias: All right next question
[12:56] Jacek Antonelli: Let FS create the features, then steal the good ones. Bwahaha. }:D
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:56] Justin Clark-Casey: it's not stealing - it's sharing in open source ;)
[12:56] Kakurady Drakenar: Give them a polish while we're at it!
[12:56] ZATZAi Asturias: What should the first thing people see when they load up the viewer be? An explanation of the various alternative grids and how to access them (Many TPV users never connect to an OpenSim grid).
[12:57] ZATZAi Asturias: The site blog, or a simple tutorial section on the blog? What about a grid picker, and should there be a default grid and thus it's landing page showing upon first launching the program (And changed to last used upon subsequent launchings)?
[12:57] Marcus Llewellyn: One of the thing Iliked about Imp was you guys never blinding stuffed patches in. You always made sure it was a good fit, and sanded off rough edges.
[12:57] Richardus Raymaker: unly thing i really wish with sl3.2 that ir emember windows positions. (could not resist)
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya no point in spending alot of time remaking things that other TPVs have already gotten working good
[12:57] McCabe Maxsted: keeping up with other viewers while maintaining our own goals is quite a task. We should prioritize
[12:57] Nautilus Mortanian: If I may interject with a caveat on low priority features? Can AO Overrider be a high-low-priority feature?
[12:57] CodeBastard Redgrave: Nautilus: i think it would be
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: it might be good once the ball is rolling
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: and all the preliminary stuff is out
[12:58] Richardus Raymaker: default grid you can set with imprudence with the grid m,anager
[12:58] Jacek Antonelli: IMO, it's not important to discuss right now what they see when they first start the viewer. I move we discuss that another time
[12:58] Boroondas Gupte: LL might be doing client-side AO, so maybe we'll get it from there, anyway
[12:58] Marcus Llewellyn: AO makes my top three, along with grid manager and improved radar.
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: to send out a Survey and get an idea of what users find most important
[12:58] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok guys, let's not get into feature for feature discussion thats a topic for another day
[12:58] Boroondas Gupte: right
[12:58] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat: good question. we already integrated a news feed for Imp in a little toolbar, so i don't think we need to show the blog. i would like a landing page with multiple grids and descriptions.
[12:58] McCabe Maxsted: it's a question of support. Every feature is a commitment
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: i can certainly forward that on to the OSgrid users
[12:58] McCabe Maxsted: kk
[12:58] Richardus Raymaker: AO is pretty important, especialy for opensim grids
[12:58] ZATZAi Asturias: Thank you Codie
[12:59] CodeBastard Redgrave: or a destination guide for every grid, that would be nifty. but it's a bit of work.
[12:59] Kentron Katana: I'd like that too Codie
[12:59] ZATZAi Asturias: That's something the grid ops can put on their own landing pages I think
[12:59] Marcus Llewellyn: +1
[12:59] ZATZAi Asturias: Which we already load into the viewer
[12:59] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, probably an explanation that Kokua allows you to connect to many grids, etc. etc. But let's talk about that another day
[12:59] CodeBastard Redgrave: or we can keep sending to the grid's landing pages
[13:00] Boroondas Gupte: +Jacek
[13:00] Marcus LlewellynMarcus Llewellyn prefers seeing grid pages, personally.
[13:00] ZATZAi Asturias: Thats what I had in mind there jacek
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: I think in terms of getting people to transition from Imprudence to Kokua
[13:00] Nicky Perian: there is interest in whats done. the mesh exp had 24 downloads in 2 days and the windows that was before it had 29 in 9 days.
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: the experience not be drasticly different at 1st
[13:00] Kentron Katana: mm may be something even better, but let's discuss it another day :)
[13:00] Kakurady DrakenarKakurady Drakenar prefers seeing a 3d scene at start up... but probably won't happen as long as grids still use landing pages.
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: it needs to be familiar
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise people are going to reject it
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: likt eh V2 debacle at LL
[13:00] ZATZAi Asturias: All right moving on, just a couple Q's left
[13:01] Kentron Katana: :)
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: Yes, let's keep moving
[13:01] Justin Clark-Casey: +1
[13:01] ZATZAi Asturias: This one almost doesn't need to be asked. It's what platforms do we support? Response from teh blog was LINUX 64!!!
[13:01] Marcus Llewellyn: Kindle Fire. <ducks>
[13:01] Jacek Antonelli: Haha
[13:01] ZATZAi Asturias: We don't have a Mac dev anymore sadly
[13:01] CodeBastard Redgrave: i say Linux 64 and Win 64. *ducks* (until we find a Mac dev of course)
[13:02] ZATZAi Asturias: So I'm thinking Linux 32/64 and Windows 32 (Though I would personally like to see Windows 64 one day)
[13:02] Kakurady Drakenar: I guess this kinda ties in to the next question - if there's some statistics collected we'd know if supporting 64 is worth it.
[13:02] CodeBastard Redgrave: who still runs freaking WinXP 32 and can we support that anyways
[13:02] McCabe Maxsted: armin has a fan following :)
[13:02] Nautilus Mortanian: According to some metrics, 64%ish of TPV users run Linux/Windows in 64bit.
[13:02] ZATZAi Asturias: But I vote those three, Nix 32/64 and Windows 32
[13:02] Richardus Raymaker: i jumped back to windows desktop to. but 64bit commond windows/linux is starting to grow in useage.
[13:02] Nautilus Mortanian: I'll find the link..
[13:02] McCabe Maxsted: sounds reasonable zatzai
[13:02] Richardus Raymaker: i know some that run winxp
[13:02] ZATZAi Asturias: We can expand the support down the line
[13:02] Richardus Raymaker: count me btw to on other pc
[13:02] ZATZAi Asturias: I think we have to support 32bit on Windows
[13:02] Nautilus Mortanian: well, it's according to Dolphin Viewer's poll, for what that's worth.
[13:02] CodeBastard Redgrave: no Win64?
[13:03] Jacek Antonelli: I'd really recommend a strong recruiting effort to find a Mac dev. Maybe not a priority right now, but once Kokua development is rolling again.
[13:03] McCabe Maxsted: xp what, only recently stopped being the most used OS?
[13:03] ZATZAi Asturias: Win 64 would be nice down the line, but can we do it from the start feasibly?
[13:03] Richardus Raymaker: i dont see much need under windows for a real64 bit client right now. 32bit works fine
[13:03] CodeBastard Redgrave: McCabe: looking to the future ;)
[13:03] McCabe Maxsted: I would rather not start out with library headaches
[13:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Does 64 even get you any real ebenfits under windows yet? Other than being a magical advertising number?
[13:03] ZATZAi AsturiasZATZAi Asturias agrees with McCabe
[13:03] Armin WeatherHax: looking at the win xp crash rate thats a platform to drop: its almost 3x as high as any other platform
[13:03] Nautilus Mortanian: well, most PCs ship with >4GB ram now.
[13:03] Nautilus Mortanian: my laptop has 6GB...
[13:03] CodeBastard Redgrave: whatevs, we also usually do a SSE2 build for Windows, are we continuing on that?
[13:04] ZATZAi Asturias: I would think so
[13:04] Tazy Yata: i think for win 64 is a PAE hack to allow more than 3 gig ram for one programm
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, Win64 can run 32-bit version. The reason we need a separate Linux64 version is because it's a hassle for Linux64 users to set up a 32-bit compatible environment
[13:04] CodeBastard Redgrave: true that
[13:04] ZATZAi Asturias: Right
[13:04] Nebadon Izumi: I am also a bit skeptical about the need for native 64 bit client in windows
[13:04] Richardus Raymaker: in my eye's its important to keep the different viewe/operating system support as small as possible
[13:04] CodeBastard Redgrave: LL's code is still 32 bits base anyways?
[13:04] Jacek Antonelli: Otherwise we'd probably be lazy and not even offer Linux64 ;)
[13:04] Nebadon Izumi: i have never seen Imprudence use more than 1gb memory
[13:04] Nautilus Mortanian: Nebadon, solid point.
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: me neither :)
[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: in Linux it makes sense a bit
[13:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. If your viewer is using more then 3gb of memory, something is rotten in Denmark.
[13:05] Nautilus Mortanian: so, Linux 64, Windows 32, and Kindle Fire then?
[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: because to get 32 bit compatibility in Linux
[13:05] CodeBastard Redgrave: true.
[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: its not nearly as easy as windows
[13:05] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok so seems to be Nix 32/64 and Win 32 now, 64 later (Mac if we find a new compiler)
[13:05] Nebadon Izumi: it requires installing lots of secondary libs
[13:05] McCabe Maxsted: haha nautilus
[13:05] Boroondas Gupte: LL's code is mostly 64-bit compatible, just needs some minor fixes. The bigger headache are libraries.
[13:05] Jacek Antonelli: +1 Z
[13:05] CodeBastard Redgrave: sounds right Zat
[13:05] ZATZAi Asturias: The next question was about Statistics but Oz already answered that in email and sent me stats
[13:05] ZATZAi Asturias: So skipping question 9
[13:05] Richardus Raymaker: i go with nebadon. just 32bit windows version
[13:06] Richardus Raymaker: linux is most painfull :O
[13:06] ZATZAi Asturias: Next question then is about the weekly meetings. We have users who can't attend during the work week and those who can't attend during the weekend
[13:06] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes, namely me
[13:06] Kentron Katana: so let's do another doodle?
[13:06] ZATZAi Asturias: My suggestions is we come up with two alternating times. The Wednesdays we have now at 20:00 UTC and another on the weekend for those who can't make it during the week. Then we alternate between them.
[13:07] ZATZAi Asturias: One week we do a wednesday, the next a weekend then back again
[13:07] CodeBastard Redgrave: i can also get online by night on the week, just not during daytime
[13:07] Jacek Antonelli: I'd really recommend, if at all possible, to find a way to make the meetings totally unimportant to the development process.
[13:07] CodeBastard Redgrave: i think Kentron's suggestion is the most sensible
[13:07] CodeBastard Redgrave: and Jacek++
[13:07] McCabe Maxsted: I agree with that
[13:07] Boroondas Gupte: we should use our mailing lists and IRC channels more for development
[13:08] ZATZAi Asturias: Looking at the Doodle we used for this meeting, it's hard to find any kind of consensus that everyone can make regularly
[13:08] Jacek Antonelli: So that you don't need the meetings at all. Maybe have them for face-time and socializing and group-bonding. But they shouldn't be critical for project operation.
[13:08] Kentron Katana: i agree with Jacek and Boroodas, ..
[13:08] CodeBastard Redgrave: i need a way to keep informed of the big lines in meetings too if i'm to be the official cheerleader
[13:08] Richardus Raymaker: so we get a kokua channel on irc ?
[13:08] Boroondas Gupte: and maybe set up a code review page, like LL has? The software they use there is open source
[13:08] McCabe Maxsted: what about hosting office hours on weekends?
[13:08] ZATZAi Asturias: Yes I would like to see more use of the mailing list as Jacek and Boroondas have said. I still think weekly meetings are worthwhile though
[13:09] Thickbrick Sleaford: Richardus: #kokua on freenode
[13:09] Thoria Millgrove: the meetings are good for those of us who have to spend time at customer sites who frown on things like IRC connections
[13:09] Justin Clark-Casey: we have a regular meeting on osgrid/opensim a nd that seems to work well
[13:09] ZATZAi Asturias: McCabe: If the meetings always took place on the weekends I think that might interfere with somes plans for weekend activities
[13:09] ZATZAi Asturias: Thats why I suggest alternating
[13:09] Justin Clark-Casey: only a few developrees actually come to that so it doesn't become the focal point
[13:09] Justin Clark-Casey: the focal point pretty much remains IRC for the most part
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted: hm
[13:09] McCabe Maxsted: yeah
[13:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya if anything the office hour meetings let the user base know you are still interested in hearing their thoughts and let them know that things are moving forward
[13:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to admit, weekends are very difficult for me
[13:10] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm just a hanger-on ;)
[13:10] ZATZAi Asturias: They are for me as well if they were regular
[13:10] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah. I think the problem is when people delay bringing up a topic for discussion (in IRC or email) because they think they need to wait for the next meeting
[13:10] ZATZAi Asturias: I like to go out on the weekends myself
[13:10] McCabe Maxsted: alternating works for me I guess; will just need reminders XD
[13:10] Kakurady Drakenar: So I suppose the office hour meetings will be fore users and not mainly for developers?
[13:10] CodeBastard Redgrave: so mailing list would be the prime vehicle?
[13:10] Kentron Katana: ok, let's alternate..
[13:10] Marcus Llewellyn: As a user, and this is prolly entirely irrational, but in-world meetings really raise my confidence level. It' nice to know I can see the people working in the viewer.
[13:10] Justin Clark-Casey: it is the case in opensim that they are more for the power users, I think
[13:11] Kakurady DrakenarKakurady Drakenar nods
[13:11] Justin Clark-Casey: but then opensimulator dev tends to be pretty disconnected
[13:11] ZATZAi Asturias: I think the meetings would still be important for Devs Kakurady. But the mailing lists and IRC would become equally important
[13:11] Boroondas Gupte: what office hour meetings? Up to now we had "ImpDev Meet-Ups". note the "Dev" in there (though users are of course welcome to participate)
[13:11] Kakurady Drakenar: ImpDev = the mailing list.
[13:11] ZATZAi Asturias: I see the meetings as a chance to catch up on what everyone has been doing, to touch base, and talk about what going to happen for the next week
[13:11] Justin Clark-Casey: borrondas: that's a good point - they're not exactly advertised widely either
[13:11] Nebadon Izumi: well we call the the opensim the "OpenSimulator Developer Office Hours"
[13:12] Justin Clark-Casey: and no offence to 3rd rock, but it's a barrier to get an account to visit
[13:12] Boroondas Gupte: We should probably rename them to Kokua-something-something, though
[13:12] ZATZAi Asturias: True
[13:12] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Justin
[13:12] Thickbrick SleafordThickbrick Sleaford thinks an IRC relay for the meetings would help those who are at work.
[13:12] McCabe Maxsted: Kokua Magical Special FunTime Happy Hour
[13:12] Kakurady Drakenar: Thickbrick++
[13:12] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[13:12] CodeBastard Redgrave: totally agreed Thick
[13:12] ZATZAi Asturias: That's a good idea Thickbrick
[13:12] Boroondas GupteBoroondas Gupte is lost who's talking about our meetings and who about OpenSim's.
[13:12] Kentron Katana: hh
[13:12] Kentron Katana: hah
[13:12] Kakurady Drakenar: IRC is also a lot easier to get into, especially that Freenode has an official webchat
[13:12] Nebadon Izumi: one of the problems witht the IRC relay
[13:12] CodeBastard Redgrave: we already discussed that in the past and we got that setup for inworld groups on SL
[13:12] Nebadon Izumi: is Freenode does not handle them well
[13:12] ZATZAi Asturias: hehe, well let me settle that by moving us on to the next question. One that is not on the list
[13:13] Jacek Antonelli: I'd recommend: mailing list for main development, IRC for quick feedback from other devs, in-world meetings for socializing and maybe short progress reviews.
[13:13] Richardus Raymaker: Justin your right. someone asked if its in osgrid. no. so he did not come
[13:13] CodeBastard Redgrave: yes
[13:13] ZATZAi Asturias: The loho
[13:13] Nebadon Izumi: you need to be careful on freenode, they are quick on the kline trigger
[13:13] ZATZAi Asturias: logo*
[13:13] CodeBastard Redgrave: it's a massive amount of chatter and the IRC ops dun like
[13:13] CodeBastard Redgrave: i love our logo!
[13:13] ZATZAi Asturias: I want to keep the current logo but I think we should update it a lil. Maybe add a lil color or something
[13:13] McCabe Maxsted: I agree
[13:13] ZATZAi Asturias: Just so its clear its a new viewer
[13:13] Marcus Llewellyn: It has color. Purple.
[13:13] McCabe Maxsted: an updated version would send a good message to everyone
[13:13] ZATZAi Asturias: Keep the purple, maybe add a lil highlight, some blue or something
[13:14] CodeBastard Redgrave: i like it monochromatic but we could change the design a bit. i do love our \m/ tho
[13:14] Thickbrick Sleaford: Latif seems to be doing fine with his multiple group chat relays for SL<-->freenode<-->OSGrid
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah. I was (way back) planning to make an updated version, with some shading etc. to make it a big different
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: *bit
[13:14] CodeBastard Redgrave: especially since Kokua and \m/ goes together
[13:14] Jacek Antonelli: Never really got around to that, though
[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya have to see what he is doing
[13:14] Nebadon Izumi: I know he uses a libomv client for it
[13:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Neb has a spinny 3D version of the logo. ;)
[13:15] Nebadon Izumi: and not reliant on the sim
[13:15] Kakurady DrakenarKakurady Drakenar never liked the \m/.
[13:15] ZATZAi Asturias: yah I don't want to lose the hand, I love the hand. I just think making it a little fresher will send a clear indication that we're taking a fresh take on Kokua
[13:15] Richardus Raymaker: but its mesh ?
[13:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i made a mesh logo
[13:15] Richardus Raymaker: SO there's finaly 1 hand thats listen ...
[13:15] Boroondas Gupte: The current logo works fine for print and on-screen at different sizes, due to its simplicity. If changing it, that's something we should try to acheive again.
[13:15] CodeBastard Redgrave: agreed Zat
[13:15] Armin WeatherHax: radegast contains a chat relay plugin, i tried it the other day, it works fine, though it only relays group chat
[13:15] ZATZAi Asturias: Agreed Boroondas
[13:16] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok last question before I open the floor
[13:16] Richardus Raymaker: some promotion material for other sides would be nice. seprate page for that...
[13:16] ZATZAi Asturias: (Amazed we got thought this all rather timely)
[13:16] Richardus Raymaker: sites ^
[13:16] Kentron Katana: yes, very fast: )
[13:16] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[13:16] Justin Clark-Casey: just imagine if this was voice :)
[13:16] ZATZAi Asturias: How shall we inform the public about what we have decided here today?
[13:16] Justin Clark-Casey: though actually it might be easier to exercise discipline
[13:16] Richardus Raymaker: lol justin.. nah that doenst work
[13:17] CodeBastard Redgrave: maybe a fresh blog post would suffice. we got the plurk and twitter channels too.
[13:17] Nebadon Izumi: its much harder to archive it though with voice
[13:17] Richardus Raymaker: ZatZai, at least on the website
[13:17] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey loves voice
[13:17] Kentron Katana: .. may be via a short blog entry..
[13:17] Justin Clark-Casey: ZATZAi: That could be good to get follow-through - maybe even attract more contributors
[13:17] Justin Clark-Casey: but then if nothing happens it could be a bit embarassing ;)
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, blog post. Then tweet and plurk the post. And a link to the post in the mailing lists.
[13:18] Marcus Llewellyn: Youtube viral video.
[13:18] Boroondas Gupte: Please summarize the decisions on the team mailing list before making wider announcements, so we can check whether we all agree with everything. It's easy to miss stuff if chat is scrolling by that fast.
[13:18] ZATZAi Asturias: Speaking off, Codie I need to talk to you later about setting up a plugin on the blog so I can tweet through it
[13:18] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat, may i backup quickly on one of the previous questions, project focus: we forgot maybe the most important thing, Privacy and Ethics. that should be the highest rank in our priorities. we have a reputation for doing the right things to protect users the best that we can.
[13:18] McCabe Maxsted: my feeling is we're a great group of people who can do some pretty awesome things. I'd like to think once we get going on something, there will be interest
[13:18] ZATZAi Asturias: Wordtwit Pro I was thinking (I got a licence)
[13:18] Jacek Antonelli: Communicate all our decisions via LOLcat
[13:19] CodeBastard Redgrave: McCabe++
[13:19] Marcus Llewellyn: Purple catz FTW!
[13:19] Thoria Millgrove: Codie +1
[13:19] ZATZAi Asturias: Sure Codie, we'll come back to that next
[13:19] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat: no worries, you know how to reach me. will send you my gmail.
[13:19] ZATZAi Asturias: Your question
[13:19] Kentron Katana: I agree McCabe too
[13:19] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok so I'll blog about what happened today, and get it out on the social networks. I'll also blast it over the mailing list
[13:20] CodeBastard Redgrave: well it was just maybe an addon. i would believe most people agrees with the ethics we always had. Jacek was our watchdog but her legacy shall persist.
[13:20] Jacek Antonelli: I have a topic I'd like to bring up when we're done with the normal agenda
[13:20] ZATZAi Asturias: Get the word out and get interest back up
[13:20] ZATZAi Asturias: Ok let's go to Codie's question then Jacek's
[13:20] ZATZAi Asturias: Codie...
[13:20] Armin WeatherHax: McCabe :D
[13:20] McCabe Maxsted: that sounds good zatzai :)
[13:21] Jacek AntonelliJacek Antonelli nudges Codie
[13:21] CodeBastard Redgrave: well it wasn't a question, just a statement =) i think we should add that to our core principles
[13:21] Jacek Antonelli: hehe
[13:21] CodeBastard Redgrave: "we forgot maybe the most important thing, Privacy and Ethics. that should be the highest rank in our priorities. we have a reputation for doing the right things to protect users the best that we can."
[13:21] CodeBastard Redgrave: so features relative to privacy and security should rank high up on the new features list<
[13:21] Boroondas Gupte: ok
[13:22] Kentron Katana: ok
[13:22] Jacek AntonelliJacek Antonelli nods
[13:22] ZATZAi Asturias: The cake is a lie, the ethics are not
[13:22] Jacek Antonelli: heh
[13:22] Kakurady Drakenar: Hmm. Speaking of privacy and security, did we talk about stats collection?
[13:22] CodeBastard Redgrave: ex: OTR, removing certain features that infringes on user's rights, etc..
[13:22] ZATZAi Asturias: We skipped that Kak as Oz Linden provided stats from LL
[13:22] Kakurady Drakenar: Oh.
[13:23] Boroondas Gupte: Jacek, you wanted to bring something up?
[13:23] ZATZAi Asturias: If we ever did ask for stats it would have to be OPT IN regardless
[13:23] ZATZAi Asturias: Yes Jacek you're up
[13:23] Jacek Antonelli: Mkay
[13:24] Kakurady Drakenar: Opt-in stats does create a bit of bias. Better than invading privacy I guess.
[13:24] Jacek Antonelli: I want to bring up the topic of monetary donations. While I was heading the project, we never had ongoing donations. Just that one special occasion when we needed to replace McCabe's computer.
[13:25] Jacek Antonelli: Mostly I was hesitant to take donations because of the legal issues and fairness -- how is the money divided?
[13:26] ZATZAi Asturias: I would say that someone (Preferable McCabe) would create a special PayPal account, and any monies donated would only go towards the project. Web hosting costs, software licences etc
[13:26] Jacek Antonelli: But I'd recommend seriously considering taking donations from users as a way to keep motivation up, and to cover operational costs (e.g. hosting)
[13:26] CodeBastard Redgrave: i always thought of it as an emergency fund for stuff like sploding computers.
[13:26] McCabe Maxsted: +1
[13:26] Nautilus Mortanian: code bounties?
[13:27] McCabe Maxsted: rent is an annoying fact of life
[13:27] CodeBastard Redgrave: i will donate the hosting space for now until it really kicks my server's ass
[13:27] CodeBastard Redgrave: if it gets 5mbps traffic for sure i'll have to do something or my associate will rip my head off
[13:27] Richardus Raymaker: well, depends where you live. hosting is not crazy expensive (can still get in papers. :P)
[13:27] ZATZAi Asturias: I can donate server space as well if need be, but it's better if the project has it's own server account in case anyone ever has to leave
[13:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I think taking ongoing donations would be a good thing
[13:27] McCabe Maxsted: would we have to register as a nonprofit for that?
[13:27] Jacek Antonelli: I'd actually say: pay out a modest stipend to team members, so that they can afford to keep working on the viewer.
[13:28] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think they will cause a problem if the person managing them is trustworthy, as I think everyone on the kokua project is
[13:28] CodeBastard Redgrave: i agree with Jacek's suggestion and McCabe as the recipient for now.
[13:28] ZATZAi Asturias: That's dependent on how much comes in though Jacek
[13:28] Justin Clark-Casey: jacek: i think that is in principle a great idea, though I suspect you wont' raise that much money
[13:28] ZATZAi Asturias: It may not be a large amount
[13:28] Justin Clark-Casey: a more viable model is actually doing viewer specific changes for certain clients, in my experience
[13:28] Jacek Antonelli: Keep a pool of money, and pay out a little of that each month or 2 weeks. Divide it either equally among all team members, or by "responsibility shares".
[13:28] CodeBastard Redgrave: even if its not large amounts, it's cool. we got plenty surprises in the past. some dude made a 1000$ donation once.
[13:28] Nautilus Mortanian: hmm, my idea is having donate buttons on the bug tracker issues. it would be a great way for the public to communicate where their priorities are.
[13:29] McCabe Maxsted: that was truly heartwarming :)
[13:29] CodeBastard Redgrave: wasn't it?
[13:29] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, let's make the bug tracker just like congress. :)
[13:29] CodeBastard Redgrave: Nautilus: i like that suggestion, like some kind of kickstarter?
[13:29] ZATZAi Asturias: haha Marcus I like the way you think
[13:29] Justin Clark-Casey: mccabe: you don't have to register. Being a non-profit is only really useful for us taxes, if registered in the us
[13:29] Jacek Antonelli: By responsibility shares, I mean that team members say they will devote a certain amount of effort towards the project each week, and their stipend is adjusted based on that.
[13:29] ZATZAi Asturias: Imprudence, SOPA edition
[13:29] Richardus Raymaker: you only need to get the righnt paypal account
[13:30] CodeBastard Redgrave: LOL Zat
[13:30] Thickbrick Sleaford: That sounds suspiciously like the Love Machine
[13:30] Nautilus Mortanian: i just want to make it easy to integrate new developers.
[13:30] Kentron Katana: haha..
[13:30] Thoria MillgroveThoria Millgrove whacks Zat with a fish
[13:30] McCabe Maxsted: that's the way to go I think, jacek
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: I would really caution against bug-fixes-for-pay, though.
[13:30] Richardus Raymaker: btw, not sure with paypal and germany. if thats subject here.
[13:30] Jacek Antonelli: Maybe bounties for the really really tough ones, but not otherwise
[13:30] Justin Clark-Casey: jacek: how so?
[13:30] CodeBastard Redgrave: oh dear god no. bug fixes are bug fixes.
[13:31] CodeBastard Redgrave: maybe cool for integrating or even creating new features
[13:31] Kakurady Drakenar: Let's hope Paypal don't freeze the money at the most inopportune moment.
[13:31] McCabe Maxsted: jcc: it skews our priorities, and makes bug fixing feel like an obligation
[13:31] CodeBastard Redgrave: yeah i guess we could use them to fix LL's crap when we can improve our user's esperience
[13:31] CodeBastard Redgrave: *experience
[13:31] Justin Clark-Casey: personally, I don't feel the amounts would ever be high enough to matter
[13:31] ZATZAi Asturias: My only concern would be if people became disenchanted because one month they're getting a nice chunk and then they're not. Then they start treating this like a job and doing the math to see if it's even woth there time to work on it
[13:31] Nicky Perian: Can you get founds from ad clicks off the blog?
[13:32] Nicky Perian: funds
[13:32] Kentron Katana: mm that's posible, PP has a history freezing accounts:/
[13:32] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, taking money in exchange for favors (fixing a bug) is too corrupting
[13:32] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat: i see what you mean
[13:32] McCabe Maxsted: what's an easy bug to fix from a user end wouldn't be from a dev end anyway
[13:32] ZATZAi Asturias: We get about 15,000 visits a month on the blog fyi
[13:32] Boroondas Gupte: I'd prefer to keep our webpages add-free. We ourselves are probably the most frequent visitors.
[13:32] Justin Clark-Casey: you want to create your own market place and tie imprudence into it ;)
[13:32] Kakurady Drakenar: Also corrupts the user which may lead to think his bug deserves fixing because he pays...
[13:32] CodeBastard Redgrave: unique visitors?
[13:32] Justin Clark-Casey: then take a cut of anything sold through ti!
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: -1000 for ads on the website
[13:33] McCabe Maxsted: zat: pay by commit? Encourages people to keep commits small and simple? hehe
[13:33] ZATZAi Asturias: Don;t think it;s unique Codie. I only causally looked at the stat
[13:33] CodeBastard Redgrave: Kakurady: yeah not to mention the sense of entitlement. we're doing it for fun.
[13:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[13:33] ZATZAi Asturias: I put a tracker plugin in Wordpress, you can login and see it
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: I've given a lot of thought to this, both when I was leading the project, and since I've retired.
[13:33] Thickbrick Sleaford: I think there's a fundametal difference between "give me donations so I/we will do this" and "give me donations if you liked what I/we did"
[13:33] Kentron Katana: anyway. 'donation' it is not the same as 'pay ' ..
[13:33] CodeBastard Redgrave: Thick++
[13:33] Nautilus Mortanian: Commit 38AA65FB Merge by Nautilus Mortanian --- Fixed missing comma in llmessage.h comment.
[13:33] Jacek Antonelli: The only fair ways I could think of were equal division, or responsibility shares.
[13:34] McCabe Maxsted: kentron++
[13:34] Nebadon Izumi: reminds me when i was a kid, parents told me they would give me certain amount of money per stick to clean sticks up in the yard, so I broke all the sticks in 1/2
[13:34] Mimetic Core: lol
[13:34] Justin Clark-Casey: rat farming in terry pratchett
[13:34] Marcus Llewellyn: However you decide to handle donations, don't make it a headache. Simpler is better.
[13:34] Armin WeatherHax: Thickbrick++
[13:34] McCabe Maxsted: aye
[13:34] ZATZAi Asturias: Project expenditures would have to come first
[13:34] ZATZAi Asturias: Hosting etc
[13:34] ZATZAi Asturias: Domain name renewal
[13:34] Thoria Millgrove: Thick +1
[13:34] ZATZAi Asturias: Not too much
[13:35] Marcus Llewellyn: liquor bill
[13:35] ZATZAi Asturias: heh
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted: hehe
[13:35] Kentron Katana: :)
[13:35] ZATZAi Asturias: Then divide up the beer money with what's left
[13:35] Richardus Raymaker: liquor ? since when do devs not run on coffee ?
[13:35] ZATZAi Asturias: That would be a good donate button, buy us a beer
[13:35] Kentron Katana: totally important :)
[13:35] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, donations should be out of appreciation, not expectation of return (bug fixes, or implementing your favorite feature, etc.). I'd say, in fact, that donations should be kept anonymous to everyone except the treasurer
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted: that's prolly all it'd end up being, if any, but it'd be nice
[13:35] Boroondas Gupte: what's the amount of current ongoing costs, btw.?
[13:35] Kakurady Drakenar: And pizza too! Don't forget pizza.
[13:35] CodeBastard Redgrave: i agree with the BUB button
[13:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Take all donation *as* beer. Problems solved.
[13:35] McCabe Maxsted: +1 anonymous donations
[13:36] Nautilus Mortanian: so what about a person who submits patches who aren't core developers?
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: I don't like beer :-(
[13:36] CodeBastard Redgrave: oh of course anon donations
[13:36] Kakurady Drakenar: Sigh, all this talk about food just make me want to have the devs all together in a real life meet.
[13:36] McCabe Maxsted: vodka for boroondas?
[13:36] Boroondas Gupte: ew
[13:36] CodeBastard Redgrave: Boor: we'll buy you wine
[13:36] Kentron Katana: +1 anon ..
[13:36] Jacek Antonelli: That's a good question, Nautilus
[13:36] Kakurady Drakenar: That would probably be a bad use for the donations :p
[13:36] Tazy Yata: isnt there a way to sell real imprudence shirts and the project gets a cut or so? like some linux distros do
[13:36] ZATZAi Asturias: That's a good point Nautilus. If a dev puts in a patch from another TPV or an outsider puts in their own patch how do we deal with that?
[13:37] CodeBastard Redgrave: probably through Cafepress and the like Tazy
[13:37] Nautilus Mortanian: not even A patch, what if its 20 patches?
[13:37] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect the returns from tat are virtually nothing
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: I'd say you have to be a team member
[13:37] McCabe Maxsted: if you want that responsibility, it's up to you
[13:37] Nautilus Mortanian: what if kokua integrates a patchset from firestorm and gets a donation because of it? :)
[13:37] ZATZAi Asturias: Legally speaking, there's a difference between selling stuff and asking for donations
[13:37] ZATZAi Asturias: It's easier if your a nonprofit but it costs a good deal of money to become one
[13:37] ZATZAi Asturias: (Works in a law firm)
[13:38] Nautilus Mortanian: yeah that makes sense mccabe.
[13:38] CodeBastard Redgrave: it's like the definition of irony Zat, costs a shitload to become a non-profit
[13:38] Nautilus Mortanian: it's as much project management as it is actual coding
[13:38] Nicky Perian: what are the costs and how are they covered now?
[13:38] Nautilus Mortanian: i hear indra is 20% code and 80% politics
[13:38] Jacek Antonelli: Yeah, it's a matter of responsibility/commitment. Maybe dedicated people who aren't team members could take out a responsibility share.
[13:38] ZATZAi Asturias: And nonprofit's tend to make a shit load of money, even more than most for-profits
[13:38] ZATZAi Asturias: It's all legal gamemanship
[13:39] Jacek Antonelli: Right now, our hosting is about $35/month, plus $10 domain registration per year. I pay it out of pocket.
[13:39] Nautilus Mortanian: well thank you for letting me sit in, this has been an eye opener for me :)
[13:39] Nautilus Mortanian: nice to see you people off the mailing list
[13:39] ZATZAi Asturias: Ciao Nautilus
[13:39] Boroondas Gupte: tc
[13:39] Jacek Antonelli: Take care, Nautilus
[13:39] Thoria Millgrove: bye Nautilus
[13:39] McCabe Maxsted: take care, nautilus :) Thanks for coming!
[13:39] CodeBastard Redgrave: yeah the reason why the team is only core devs and management is because we have to accept responsability legally for whatever comes into the viewer. doesn't mean we don't accept and welcome contributions from other dedicated devs
[13:40] CodeBastard Redgrave: but if they want to share that responsability, of course we can vote in new core team members
[13:40] CodeBastard Redgrave: its a question of commitment too of course
[13:40] Jacek Antonelli: I'd like to get the hosting costs down. Mostly it's our issue tracker that requires such expensive hosting. So, switching to BitBucket JIRA would be nice.
[13:40] McCabe Maxsted: sounds like a win to me
[13:40] CodeBastard Redgrave: good idea Jacek
[13:40] Kakurady Drakenar: I'm a bit weary about using a proprietary system like JIRA.
[13:40] McCabe Maxsted: although I'll feel bad for people having to register yet another account..
[13:40] ZATZAi Asturias: I think, donations are an idea worth pursuing. And I can check on the legalities of it all later if everyone wants to follow up on it. But I think initially we should just focus on getting out a new viewer and refresh of the web site
[13:41] Richardus Raymaker: Jacek. can i ask what hosting cost for you ? its a server or only webpage hositing with DB etc ?
[13:41] CodeBastard Redgrave: the issue is also that we host Redmine, and i know 0 shit about RoR. so if i'm about to host that, we may have issues.
[13:41] Jacek Antonelli: So am I, Kakurady. But we can check what they allow to be exported, and decide based on that
[13:41] Thickbrick Sleaford: bitbucket works with openID, so registration is quick.
[13:42] ZATZAi Asturias: Could we switch to Trax?
[13:42] ZATZAi Asturias: That's PHP isn't it?
[13:42] CodeBastard Redgrave: Trax is what PHP?
[13:42] Jacek Antonelli: Richardus: right now it's hosting a VPS which serves up all our site (blog, wiki, forums, issue tracker, etc.), along with a database server that comes with the hosting.
[13:42] CodeBastard Redgrave: i can host any PHP app while sipping my tea
[13:42] ZATZAi Asturias: Ditto
[13:42] Jacek Antonelli: I read about someone trying to port Redmine to PHP a while back. Not sure if they did it or not.
[13:42] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat: i'll give you a plesk access as soon as i'm done setting it up
[13:43] Thickbrick Sleaford: the problem is that some/most bug trackers are pretty heavy when it comes to server load
[13:43] Jacek Antonelli: Anyway.
[13:43] CodeBastard Redgrave: that would be awesome JAcek. we could keep the same DB and just switch the app
[13:43] CodeBastard Redgrave: we'll discuss the details later anyways Jacek, if we have to transfer all that
[13:43] Jacek Antonelli: I just wanted to bring up the topic of donations. Give it some serious consideration.
[13:43] Jacek Antonelli: That's all. :)
[13:43] CodeBastard Redgrave: oh i'm with you on that one
[13:44] ZATZAi Asturias: God I hate Plesk
[13:44] Jacek Antonelli: hehehe
[13:44] ZATZAi Asturias: I have it on my current server too
[13:44] Armin WeatherHax: speaking of getting out a new viewer. do we plan to have a final impru release? There are still 1/2 year old linux bugfixes pending which by accident didn't get merged into the betas ... and for "closing "open braces" ...
[13:44] ZATZAi Asturias: I miss Direct Admin
[13:44] CodeBastard Redgrave: it's a love hate affair for me
[13:44] CodeBastard Redgrave: i learned to love it, but it can has bugs.
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli: Armin: I think McCabe and onefang are going to work on a final release of Imp?
[13:45] ZATZAi Asturias: Yah you really gotta jump though some hoops to get it to do things
[13:45] CodeBastard Redgrave: Armin: i agree we should at least release the final ASAP, i think all we need to add is that patch for the inventory.
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli: Which sounds like a good idea to me. Get some psychological closure.
[13:45] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey grins
[13:45] Armin WeatherHax: ah, I missed that then
[13:45] ZATZAi Asturias: There are a couple options there
[13:45] Jacek Antonelli: It was only mentioned briefly
[13:45] ZATZAi Asturias: Regarding Onefang and Imp
[13:45] McCabe Maxsted: armin: can I merge your latest branch and get 'em all in?
[13:45] CodeBastard Redgrave: i think someone already made the patch for Imp
[13:45] Richardus Raymaker: i hate both, plesk & remote admin. ssh is nice.
[13:46] ZATZAi Asturias: But that is something I would rather talk about later
[13:46] ZATZAi Asturias: It will take a good deal of time
[13:46] ZATZAi Asturias: We've been going back and forth over it in emails, McCabe, Boroondas and I
[13:46] ZATZAi Asturias: I think we'll work something out though
[13:46] Armin WeatherHax: McCabe: yes, its something "inventory-cap" or so
[13:46] Jacek Antonelli: Mkay
[13:46] CodeBastard Redgrave: they changed something that threatens to prevent 1.x from handling inventory on the grid
[13:46] Jacek Antonelli: Are we done?
[13:46] ZATZAi Asturias: Are there any other issues people want to table?
[13:47] CodeBastard Redgrave: pretty much done here
[13:47] Boroondas Gupte: one last thing:
[13:47] ZATZAi Asturias: Go for it Boroondas
[13:47] Boroondas Gupte: mailing lists
[13:47] Richardus Raymaker: just finsihed the registartion
[13:48] Armin WeatherHax: McCabe:
[13:48] McCabe Maxsted: thanks
[13:48] Boroondas Gupte: Please use the ImpDev mailing list for all things Imprudence (i.e. 1.x based viewers of this team and maybe its successors) and the Kokua-dev maling list for all things Kokua (i.e. 3.x-based viewers of this team)
[13:49] ZATZAi Asturias: We may want to set ImpDev to archive mode in the future?
[13:49] Boroondas Gupte: that depends on what will happen with Imp
[13:49] ZATZAi Asturias: True
[13:49] Marcus Llewellyn: Ya, on that note I was wondering about the #imprudence IRC channel as well.
[13:49] ZATZAi Asturias: Same fate
[13:49] Boroondas Gupte: there's also a #kokua channel
[13:49] CodeBastard Redgrave: i agree with that
[13:50] Marcus Llewellyn: Yup. I've been lurking in both channels for ages. #imprudence is the well populated one at the moment.
[13:50] Boroondas Gupte: though, the equivalent of the inworld groups + IRC rellay is still missing for kokua, I think?
[13:50] ZATZAi Asturias: If we archive them we'll put redirects/notices in them in case people find them and wonder why they're empty
[13:50] Jacek Antonelli: Right, as far as I know there are no Kokua inworld groups or IRC relay yet
[13:50] Nicky Perian: is there an SL kokua group?
[13:51] ZATZAi Asturias: Good question
[13:51] Nicky Perian: k
[13:51] McCabe Maxsted: better inworld group management....I've been thinking on that for a while. It might behoove us to work on that in order to keep our inworld groups on various grids up to date
[13:51] Nicky Perian: answered
[13:51] McCabe Maxsted: right now, it's a pain in the ass, to put it mildly
[13:51] Jacek Antonelli: We might want to recruit a "native" volunteer (or several) on each grid to help with that
[13:51] CodeBastard Redgrave: not yet i believe
[13:51] ZATZAi Asturias: I'll have to create a wiki page to keep track of it all if one does not already exist
[13:51] Boroondas Gupte: do we need inworld groups?
[13:51] CodeBastard Redgrave: for support, probably
[13:52] Jacek Antonelli: And group titles \m/
[13:52] CodeBastard Redgrave: the Imp one is popular on SL at least
[13:52] ZATZAi Asturias: Good for the relay if nothing else
[13:52] McCabe Maxsted: users like 'em
[13:52] CodeBastard Redgrave: Zat++
[13:52] Kentron Katana: The imp group could send a notice about Kokua group for ex..
[13:52] Kakurady Drakenar: Great way to show Imp love if nothing else.
[13:52] Boroondas Gupte: we could just tell everyone to use a common IRC channel (#kokua-chat-and-support or whatever)
[13:52] McCabe Maxsted: there were some things I wanted to do, like have a new group title every month, that just took way too long
[13:53] McCabe Maxsted: notices are frustrating too
[13:53] ZATZAi Asturias: IRC is not even understood by most people
[13:53] CodeBastard Redgrave: yeah most people inworld won't fire IRC to get help
[13:53] Boroondas Gupte: I don't understand it, either. Doesn't keep me from using it.
[13:53] Richardus Raymaker: shame, it works so much nicer then websites
[13:53] Justin Clark-Casey: god, how dumb are people
[13:53] Justin Clark-Casey: bah
[13:53] ZATZAi Asturias: Personally I prefer email
[13:54] ZATZAi Asturias: I can't run IRC on my phone easily
[13:54] ZATZAi Asturias: But I get all the emails on all my devices
[13:54] Tazy Yata: give them embedded into the webpage the irc webchat app >.>
[13:54] McCabe Maxsted: we need a blackberry IRC
[13:54] CodeBastard Redgrave: lol
[13:54] ZATZAi Asturias: Will that work on Linux Tazy?
[13:54] ZATZAi Asturias: It's a good idea if so
[13:54] Jacek Antonelli: We can do an IRC client in a web page, sure
[13:54] Kakurady Drakenar: Should work on anything
[13:54] McCabe Maxsted: freenode has a web interface
[13:54] Tazy Yata:
[13:54] Marcus Llewellyn: OSGrid has an embedded IRC web thingy.
[13:54] Jacek Antonelli: yeah
[13:54] ZATZAi Asturias: We'll do that on the new site them
[13:55] Thickbrick Sleaford: you can link to the freenode thing with a channel name in the link, IIRC
[13:55] ZATZAi Asturias: That's a good idea
[13:55] Jacek Antonelli: sounds good
[13:55] Nicky Perian: i put colloquy on my iphone and it is neat
[13:55] Tazy Yata: theres some changes possible in link or so to auto connect with name xzy and right channel
[13:55] Nebadon Izumi: we use the embedded webchat IRC on osgrid website
[13:55] Jacek Antonelli: Mkay, are we done today?
[13:55] Nebadon Izumi: i have no idea how good it works on phone though
[13:55] Kakurady Drakenar: You can have the freenode webchat prefill stuff too, like
[13:55] Kentron Katana: .seems we are ..
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: yep, let's roll up
[13:56] ZATZAi Asturias: All right then
[13:56] McCabe Maxsted: :)
[13:56] Boroondas Gupte: Thanks all for coming
[13:56] ZATZAi Asturias: Thank you everyone for coming, nice to meet all of you who are here for the first time
[13:56] Jacek AntonelliJacek Antonelli rolls everybody up into a Katamari ball, then rolls away while laughing maniacally
[13:56] Kentron Katana: has been a pleasure .)
[13:56] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks a lot for running the meeting, guys
[13:56] ZATZAi Asturias: We'll post this stuff up to the wiki and blog later
[13:56] McCabe MaxstedMcCabe Maxsted is excited
[13:56] McCabe Maxsted: haha, jacek
[13:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Thank you guys! I'm thrilled with the direction of the meeting today. :)))
[13:56] ZATZAi Asturias: And things are looking up
[13:56] Jacek Antonelli: Awesome, Z :)
[13:57] ZATZAi Asturias: We'll resume our regular weekly meetings on Wednesday at 20:00 UTC (12 Noon Pacific)
[13:57] CodeBastard Redgrave: so good to see you all here! that kind of cranks my hopes for the future =)
[13:57] Kentron Katana: ok:
[13:57] Thoria Millgrove: \o/
[13:57] Boroondas Gupte: \m/
[13:57] Tazy Yata: embedded example..
[13:57] Jacek Antonelli: \o) \o/ (o/ (o) \o/